Sunday, May 07, 2006

I Thought Muttawas* Didn't Even *Like* Camera Phones..

Today I scarred myself emotionally. I will forever suffer the psychological consequences.
Or atleast for the next couple of days I will.
Whatever.

It all started when my idiot little mind made my idiot little mouth ask a friend to show me the video of the Muttawa* (member of the religious police) raping a girl.
I hate when I get all "I-won't-believe-it-till-I-see-it" on people.
Ya3ny she told you it exsisted, ubergirl... Why, why must you doubt!?
Because I'm "curious". That's why.
"Curious" my ass. Malgoofa is more like it.

It was horrible.
Horibble.
He had a beard and everything.
He was scolding her while doing it.
Who know they* were kinky, eh? Shut up! You were thinking it too!

It wasn't exactly rape, though.
Apparently they* had "caught" her doing something, and she was trading sex for freedom.
She was obviously okay with the whole.. Err.. Thing.

Not only was the tape horrible enough on it's own, it made me ask myself: "You mean they're*
not really "religious"? "
Whoa.

ubergirl

*I have recently learned that some men pose as religious police to do things like this.
I now firmly believe the man in the video I saw is not a real Muttawa.

Oh, one more thing. This is my blog. And I get to say whatever the hell I want. I can blame people, I can point fingers, I can say I hate the Hay2a. If you don't like it, then you better find yourself something else to read.
(Please note that I can blame and point fingers, but I haven't in this post. I just want to state that I can if I want to.)

55 comments:

Shy said...

Thats awful!

On the subject of wanting to see nasty things, its funny how people want to see them. They know as soon as they see it they will be disgusted by it but they still wana see it. The human mind is perverted!

Khalidah said...

So I never trust these guys or what the show on the surface ... but seeing it actually done is something else

That is way twisted

Anonymous said...

ubergirl. Trading sex for freedom is a form of rape, at least in any western country it would be. it is not a matter of whether or not she appears to be fighting back, rather it is whether she could have made him stop by saying "no." this was blackmail, so it was rape.

assholes. did he get caught and flogged?

Nuri said...

completely agree with anonymous. And being "religious" doesn't mean they're good although they sure claim to be... you'd find examples in every religion.

ubergirl87 said...

Anon and Nuri: Wouldn't trading sex for anything- including freedom- be considered prostitutioin? I mean, she could have found another way to get out of punishment.
He's still a dirty bastard, though.

And if you see how these men whine about everything; "cover your hair, cover your face, wear your abaya on your head, you know what? Don't go out all together! Bla bla bla.." You'd understand my shock. I never thought they completely followed their rules, and I never EVER thought they'd star in a sex tape.
And I don't know if the people responsible got caught.

Nuri said...

In a way... you're right Ubergirl
I think prostitution should be illegal.

Anonymous said...

prostitution is a life-style choice.

being held hostage and being given the choice of either sex or freedom from prison is rape. that is the legal standard in the west.

the point is that rape is not really about sex (as prostitution is. it is about power. the religious policemen had power. the woman had none. also, you might want to consider that she would have been raped anyway - but if she didn't fight back, she would be let go. you might also want to consider the fact that if this was photgraphed, how many of these guys rape women and don't get caught. sort of like abu ghraib. you can be sure that not all of the torture that went on there was photographed.

Anonymous said...

nuri, prostitution is illegal almost everywhere. but as long as men are willing to pay for sex, it isn't likely to go away anytime soon. in countries where it is illegal it is regulated, which prevents the spread of diseases like aids and other stds.

Nuri said...

Ok, it's "regulated" in my country too, but not legal which is kind of contradictory i think. It's a way of making it legal, actually. Sweden is the only western country where it's really illegal. Also, trading sex for money to get out of poverty is also a way of trading sex for freedom. It may be a "life-style choice" as you say, but i doubt it's the kind of "job" you'd want for your daughters...
Tough subject, it'll never disappear...

Anonymous said...

Where can one download this video clip?

Prup (aka Jim Benton) said...

The question whether it is prostitution or rape is a difficult one. If she, entirely on her own, made the offer to exchange sex for freedom, it MIGHT be 'only' prostitution -- which I would argue should be legal, even if I think it is dumb.

If he made the suggestion, it is rape, even if she thought it was a 'fair deal' because of the power relationship that occurred, which is why the "MIGHT" in the previous. When there is a power differential, boss-worker, teacher-student, doctor-patient, even parent-child, the question of sex becomes VERY tricky. When the person involved has the power to cause serious harm, as in this case, if he makes the slightest 'first move' it is extortion, and extorted sex is rape, in my eyes.

Anonymous said...

anytime a woman is threatened with potential negative consequences if the woman says no, it is rape. very long jail sentances for the rapist, if convicted, and with dna evidence it is not too hard. if there is actual penetration. if there is not, it is sexual harrasment or simple of assault, both of which are prosecutable under western law.

for certain, a woman in a prison is not charged with prostitution unless she was selling sex to another prisoner. but if the "sex" is with a guard or a policeman, it is extortion which is a form of rape.

Dostish said...

Anon;
Please do not compare what happened in abu ghraib to this, Because I know for a fact that there are gangs of
teenage boys running around riyadh wearing long beards and short thobes in the well known muttawa GMC doing
such acts and sending them out to the public. I am not 'on their side' I don't like most of the things muttawas
do, but truth be told a REAL muttawa would never make a sex video, and even if he did I don't think he would
have it on tape or rather send it out for everyone to see. Personally I don't beleave theese kinds of stories,
I beleave that muttawas, like the rest of us, make mistakes. They are not perfect and they don't claim to be,
but beleave me their mistakes DO NOT include sex videos.

ubergirl87 said...

Dostish: Are you saying the guy in the tape is probably NOT an actual Muttawa?
There are people who pose as Muttawas to rape girls? Are you positive?

Anonymous said...

ubergirl. did you see this. http://muttawa.blogspot.com. read the comments.

Anonymous said...

read about half down.

Anonymous said...

"Alhamedi I am disappointed that you would even consider linking to a person who is so childish and ignorant enough to point the finger at the rape victim.
That is the problem with a lot of Muslims, they go around and judge people without knowing the facts. I cannot believe that she is blaming the victim! It does not take a genius to figure out that there is a HUGE difference between rape and prostitution."

Dotsson from muttawa.blogspot.com.

Anonymous said...

go dotsson! he's right ubergirl. no self-respecting woman would ever point the finger at a rape victim. & you can bet your ass that this is not all that unusual.

Dostish said...

Ubergirl; Yes that is exactly what i'm saying and I am posiive.

Dostish said...

ubergirl; I'm not sure they do it specifically to rape girls but they do things just as bad.

Anonymous said...

muttawa are perverts. & everyone knows it.

Fedo said...

Omg, this just made my skin crawl!

ubergirl87 said...

Excuse me? Where did I point the finger at a rape victim?
And I only ever considered calling it prostitution because I've had friends caught by the Muttawas.
And guess what?
They got out without having sex with anyone.
Please allow me to quote myself: "Wouldn't trading sex for anything- including freedom- be considered prostitutioin? ...
He's still a dirty bastard, though."
I stand behind what I said. trading sex for ANYTHING is prostitution. And he is a dirty bastard.
And may I remind you all, that I am the only one here that saw that video, and I don't even know the real story. I'm just saying: IT DID NOT LOOK LIKE RAPE. She was not crying. Nor was she fighting him. It didn't look like he forced her.
It did not LOOK like rape, but it was because he had power over her, I agree. I am 100% on the girl's side. All I'm saying is that this whole story is very peculiar. How does one get there? Do you say "Hey I'll sleep with you to get outta here"? Or does he say "you know.. there IS an easy way out.."?
And why is this the first time I (and everyone I know) hear of this? This is a HUGE deal!
And maybe it's just porn. Maybe they're acting.
I personally think he's not really a Muttawa.
And again: I am on the girl's side. Just because I am suspicious, does not mean I commend any of this.
Assuming I still have the right to be suspicious.
And all in all, I'm glad it's out. Hopefully he'll get caught. Probably not.

Fedo said...

Was she calling him "Waleed" by any chance? If she was, then it's an old clip that was circulated over the internet. It's at least 4 years old.

Fedo said...

...And it's no "religious policeman." Just a perv with a beard who hid his camcorder in -what seems to be- a closet.

ubergirl87 said...

I didn't notice her calling him Waleed.. And there was another guy in the room, he was shooting.

ubergirl87 said...

One more thing, I'm not talking about this story in particular, but in my opinion, prostitutes are always a victim.

Jihad said...

Alright, so this guy is a low-life freakin bastard. But why are you generalizing his crime to everyone who looks like him or works in the same job. 'Muttawa' is a vaguely defined word, yet if anyone remotely linked to it (has a beard, or a short thobe) does anything wrong, then it's a problem with the whole group and not that individual himself.

I know Hai2ah/religious-police/Muttawa bashing has been the cool thing to do for a while now. But let's be realistic here, Appearing to be religious says almost NOTHING about a person. It only means that he/she publicly appears to be religious. If they are caught doing something wrong, then that means that they are probably not as religious as it seems. If they are caught committing an abhorrent act such as this, then it's a crime that an individual committed and should be punished for. It seems although there are people who wait anxiously to see someone with a beard make a mistake and then make it headline news. WHEN WILL WE UNDERSTAND:
1 - Not all people who have a religious appearance are religious
2 - Even people who really admire the religion and/or work hard to apply it in their lives, even they make mistakes

Jihad said...

This categorization of people as "Muttawa"s (in the general sense, not just working for hai2ah) is ridiculous and is severely hurting our society. I have a beard now and I spent several years without it. When I didn't have my beard, rarely would anyone accept any moral or religious advice from me. It was very easy for everyone to respond with "and what are you, Muttawa?". It's like not having a beard makes you a worthless sinner who can never ask people for higher moral and religious standards. And now that I have a beard, people treat me like I memorized the quran and the six hadith books and that I do no wrong. Both these reactions are ridiculous and illogical. I had days when I had no beard in which I was on a much higher moral and religious ground than I am on today. And I've had days when I had a beard in which I didn't even pray for weeks. But it's very simple for us to categorize people and deal with the categories, instead of dealing with people as unique individuals.

I did not sport the beard to follow the sunnah, although that it was one reason. My reason for growing my beard is to be identified as a Muslim. My first two years in the states (especially after 9/11), I tried not to make it obvious that I'm Saudi, that I'm Muslim. But eventually I came to the belief that I should be proud of what I am and what I believe in. And that being Muslim is my identity and that bowing to the pressure and hiding just to avoid the stereotypes is weak.

This ‘guilt by association’ is absurd. Although I've grown thick skin, it just saddens me that people have to endure stereotypes even from amongst their brethren.

Nuri said...

I'm with you, Ubergirl. Does Dotsson have anything against you?? Either he didn't read well or he was just trying to attack you, especially at the Religious Policeman blog

Anonymous said...

dotsson is just a perverted kid

ubergirl87 said...

Jihad: I only ever said he was a Muttawa because that was the information I was given. The video was called "Beware of Muttawas".
But as Dostish explained to me before, he wery well could just be a guy with a beard.
And if he was infact a memeber of the religious police, then he wouldn't have been alone. there would have been atleast two other Muttawas and a police officer , who would know of this incident. And that doesn't make it the mistake of an individal anymore. It means three other people let this happen. Two of which are other Muttawas. And I can't say I will easily believe that it was just those three Muttawas who aren't religious.
"Not all people who have a religious appearance are religious"
That's not right. It's not right to pretend you're religios when you're not. Why would anyone do that!? And I'm not talking about beards. I'm talking about people who ask you to cover your face like Muttawas.

"Even people who really admire the religion and/or work hard to apply it in their lives, even they make mistakes"
Rape is not a mistake. Rape is a crime.

And I will not lie to you. I hate Muttawas. And who are you to say I'm doing it because it's "cool"? You haven't been through what I have. I hate them very mch, yes.

Nuri: Oh, God knows.

Jihad said...

Ubergirl,
Just because you're not fond of them doesn't give you the right to throw allegations left and right like that.

Even if it were 2 or 3 or even 100 of them, you're always going to have that margin of corrupt human beings in any organization. However, the only realistic way to judge such a sector is by weighing its pros and against its cons. Not just by seeing how we personally feel about it. It is clear that such acts are against the aims of the hai2ah and that honest members of the hai2ah could never do or allow such a thing to happen.



Why would anyone pretend to be religious?
Many reasons. Pressure from the father/family, peer pressure, an attempt to fit-in in a group of people who would only accept him if he had that appearance...etc. The point is, there are many reasons. So it isn't right to assume people with religious appearance are religious and it also isn't right to claim they are corrupt. They're just other people...

"Rape is not a mistake. Rape is a crime."
I was merely speaking in general terms. But I would go father with this and claim that if this person does turn out to be from the hai2ah, that he should be executed for treason. Using your position in a morality-promoting government organization to rape a woman and even tape that, that's just low..

Those people who tell you to cover are employees (and sometimes volunteers) in a governmental organization that aims to police morality in the public spheres. Morality in the understanding of the society includes modesty and gender relations. These are controversial issues that people will always have different opinions about. However, the line has to be drawn somewhere. And although it might not be in the right place now, dissolving the whole thing is not the solution.


I'm sorry for my "cool" comment. You didn't deserve that. I was just frustrated. Please accept my apology.

Anonymous said...

ubergirl87 - you rock, girl. Way to go!

Farooha said...

Forgive my intruding; I however feel obliged to comment on the little misunderstanding between the two of you. I second both Ubergirl and Jihad but only to a certain extent each. Jihad, I understand your point, my sister Najla for example, being a so called "m6ow3ah" (far from it, just notably a tad more god-fearing than the rest of the pack) is oftentimes subject to unfair prejudices. I remember her complaining about how her coworkers gave her astonished looks when they saw that she owned an i-pod or found out that she sometimes donned "ban6aloon", thinking it to be contradictary to everything the "5imar" she wears stood for. (she is a trainee at a mixed envioronment; some even see that as a contradiction in itself!!), so I see your point.

I agree that it would be splendid if we were able to carry out a discussion about this issue far from titles and generalizations. You see, I too understand that he is human, regardless of his convictions. He is a jerk because of what he did, not who he is. Muttawa or not, this man should be prosecuted just as Barjis was before him.

That is much easier said than done, though, I'm afraid.

You see, I also agree with Ubergirl that the irony is a little offputting; the reaction it got is all but natural. The stereotype of being hypocritical, especially when proven by members time and time again, is VERY hard to just shake off. You belong to a group, you are obligated to behave in a certain manner because of this; else you are not up to it. All this gets even worse when they, and yes I will generalize, constantly attack(LITERALLY) others for being morally indecent or for something as petty as not covering your eyes (has happened to me on VARIOUS occasions), when they act like "folks who've been delegated by God to judge you" and what have you; then expect it to balloon. They have scrutinized many for so long, it is only natural that they one day become the subject of scrutiny, as well. It's a natural equation; I hate to quote the new testament right now (I really hope it doesn't invalidate my argument) but: "Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned." It's that simple.

I do, however, think that we should make the distinction between muttawas (the loving nonprofit ones :-D) and al hay2ah. I have many loved ones who belong to the former and they are NOTHING like the latter; very tolerant unique and understanding people. I think it is from this point that the dispute stems.

ubergirl87 said...

Jihad: I did not throw allegations. I told you. I'm only repeating what I was told. I was told he was a Muttawa. And this is the third time I say this: I NOW BELIEVE HE IS NOT.
"Even if it were 2 or 3 or even 100 of them, you're always going to have that margin of corrupt human beings in any organization."
The Hay2a's job is to NOT be corrupt. What is the point of having the Hay2a if our attitude is going to be "Well some are gonna be corrupt.. But what the heck! Let's jut let 'em harrass people for kicks!"
I just don't get it.

" it isn't right to assume people with religious appearance are religious and it also isn't right to claim they are corrupt"
That's like saying it isn't right to assume people who are wearing jeans are not wearing jeans. If someone LOOKS religious (Abaya on her head/beard) I have every right to assume they are. That is the image they are giving the world, that's what they want me to believe, or else they shouldn't have looked the part.
And where did I say people who look religious are all corrupt? Please refresh my memory.
I accept your apology. And please keep in mind, I am frustrated also, and somehow I managed to control my temper and not say anything mean, because that would be the easy way out.

ubergirl87 said...

That's like saying it isn't right to assume people who are wearing jeans are wearing jeans.*

Anonymous said...

so you tend to judge a book by its cover?

ubergirl87 said...

Let's be realistic.
Who doesn't label a bearded man as religious?

Anonymous said...

i look at their actions and how they act, it's a bad habit to pass quick judgement,,,that's what many people accuse saudies of doing

ubergirl87 said...

The whole world passes judgement too quickly. Labeling people is not something that only Saudis do.
And anyone who says that Saudis pass judgement too quickly is contradicting themselves.
People who grow beards and wear their abaya on their heads ARE religious. I don't think having an i-Pod or wearing pants is "not religious". I'm saying they probably pray five times a day and fast in Ramadhan.
What's wrong with assuming someone's religious? They should be flattered. It's not like I'm assuming they're a mass murderer.
One more thing, how they dress is part of how they act.

Anonymous said...

i'm surprised you of all people think a way a person dresses is based on how they act, and the kind of context people use religous nowadays is as if they committed mass murder...and praying five times a day and fasting during ramadan doesn't make you religous,,,makes you a basic muslim

sa5eef_e9bay said...

:Dانت انونيموس الأخير كنت باقول كلامك.. بس يالله فيك الخير والبركة

بس ياأبر جيرل انا يوم شفت التحديث في الصراحة "انترستينج بوينت" وهادي ثاني مرة تقوليها بعد --------- نصاب يبي يغير الموضوع

انتي كاتبه انه اللي مايعجبه لايجي... طيب انتي تكتبي الكلام للناس اللي متفقة معاج في الرأي.. ادا كدا سكري البلوج وريحي روحج

انا ماأقول انج ماتبين ناس مايناقشو.. بس كما ان لج الحق تقولي اللي تبيه هم ليهم الحق يقولو اللي يبوه في التعليقات.. مادري يعني في رأيي

تحياتي :)

layal said...

صدقتي طرحت موضوع اللبس كيف ممكن نحكم علي الناس كونهم ملتزمين او لا من لبسهم؟ -هذا اكبر خطأ نقع فيه
معظم اللي ردوا علي وافقوني لكن عموما في الواقع احنا ناخذ بالشكل ولا نقدر نعرف المضمون

Sweet Anger said...

This is just too horrific, i still dont understand how this can happen in Saudi where people are supposed to be muslim, and yes i know that there are people who condemn actions such as this and fornication. As for this rape, and i do think its a rape in a sense that this girl did not choose to have sex with this man but was forced to by situation, and yes ubergirl she did have another option but both are not really options (I do think she made a poor choice, i'd rather be locked up the rest of my life then let some low life touch me, ewe). The point being the rape is initiated by the man, he didnt refuse he simply took advantage and that means he takes full blame for what happened. People!!remember that opinions matter whether you agree with it or not, ubergirl can say whatever she wants and you dont have to agree with it... life would just be too damn boring if everyone agreed to everything.

I do hope someone finds the bastard and chops of his d**k.

ubergirl87 said...

If a woman were in a Kimono, we'd all (rightfully) assume she were Japanese.
If a woman wears her abaya on her head, we have the right to assume she is religious. The definition of religious varies from person to person. There is no one definition. And my definition of religious is a person who fears God, and does what Islam has asked of him/her. Not some extremist who thinks smiling is 7aram. And just like a woman who wears her abaya on her head can be religious, a woman who wears a regular 7ijab can be religious.
Who says a "basic muslim" isn't religious? Why are you complicating Islam?
And again; WHEN SOMEONE ASSUMES YOU ARE RELIGIOUS, YOU SHOULD BE FLATTERED. I'd be.

sa5eef: انا ما عندي مانع اتناقش مناقشة هادفة مع ناس عقلانيين. الناس اللي يتهموني و يسبون هذول اللي ما ابغاهم

Anonymous said...

you didn't get my point, but that's alright

ubergirl87 said...

I believe I did.

Don Cox said...

"Who doesn't label a bearded man as religious?"___I don't. Why on Earth would letting your beard grow make you religious? The idea is absurd. I grew a bear for a few years and it was because I was too lazy to shave. Religion has nothing at all to do with what fashions you wear. I would be very suspicious of anyone who wears funny clothes or grows a beard or an odd hair style "to show he is religious". What kind of truly religious person wants to go around showing off about it?

ubergirl87 said...

I am not talking about Westerners. I'm talking about Saudis. Religious people dress a certain way here. You can point them out in a crowd: The men wear short thoubs, no igaal, and they have long beards.
The women wear abayas on their heads and cover their faces.

"What kind of truly religious person wants to go around showing off about it?"

It's not necessarily showing off.
These people believe shaving is forbidden.

curious george said...

Perhaps Ubergirl got a bit excited seeing something she is forbidden to do until her father 'sells' her off in marriage? Did this fur ball ' more than likely unwashed' Muttawa seem as if he was acting? If the girl in the vid wasn't looking afraid or ashamed then I'm betting the whole thing was a sham.

ubergirl87 said...

George get over yourself.

Anonymous said...

True or not... It seems to me that the very individuals that claim to keep people on the moral path are the individuals that stray the most from that same path.

Religious or not, the power they hold over people corrupts them.

This is not only the case in the middle east, but also here in Norway. Which is arguably the least religious country in the world. We have our christian sects and movements, but they are small and inconsequential. But they still violate womens rights with disregard to the rest of society.

Fortunately they are held accountable by the justice system, which is not always the case everywhere in this small, troubled world.

The future must be rescued by women, we men have really made a mess of things...

Good blog, btw :-)

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the_smartest1 said...

--

well,, first time for me to hear about tsuch video.

but i dont need this story, and no need for proof,

just stand in the street or shopping mall, during prayers time, to see the mutawwah coming to you,
ordering you to pray, while he himself doesnt pray :).


so i think this is enough to proove that mutawwahs are not mutawwahs, it is almost like a job they get paid for it :) , and the bird and short thobe is thier costume ;) , or work dress code.

and his job is shouting to ppl to pray.

thats all, now u will see the world with new prospective ^_^.


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