Monday, August 28, 2006

"God Protect Me From Your "Followers""

I hate Abayas.
Stupid Hay'a sticking us in black Abayas. As if it weren't hot enough in Saudi Arabia!

I hate hate haaate the Hay'a.
I realize they're trying to be "religious", but I don't understand why they're trying to impose their "religion" upon everyone else! It's just so... Uncivilized!
I don't go around sharing my views on facial hair with them! I don't tell their wives and daughters and sisters and whoever the hell else they "own" how to dress and how to act and what to think!
They make us all do what they think is "right", and I think what they think is "right" is in fact wrong wrong wrong.
And let's not forget that the only thing in life that matters is what I, ubergirl, think. Just pretend you agree with that last sentence. I believe it. Please don't ruin that for me.

Why the hell do we listen to them? Why am I fucking scared of them!? It should be the other fucking way around! I know they've been given power, but who the fuck cares!
My highschool principle had power, I didn't give a shit. No-one gave a shit.
I hate the Hay'a so much.



mana2eesh said...

ya5i complain about something new.

Bananahamic said...

me 2 wallah...And why are we the only country that believes in '3a6a (face cover) ?? Are we the only real Moslems??
And why do they assume that we are al emam Ahmad ibn Hanbl followers? Maybe we are shf3yeen
Will it's something we had been teached since kindergarten 1- obeys Allah. 2- Obeys Prophet Mohammad. 3- Obeys your countries leaders.
Brain wash sort a thing that why we are scared …they have the power from our government. If you love the king you will obey the hay2a...And I don't think that they are staying any longer time. The people are waking up O '7YAS'HOM BDA Y6L3.

!n$@n!tY said...

me thinks this post be inspired by a incident.
plz do share with us m'lady.

*PerdU* said...

F*&^% the hay'a!!!!! and F#$%^ abayas!!! by the way, incase u didnt know, they do NOT concider anyone else muslim but their sleves! stupid bearded ass holes! thank god im not going back to saudi for a while! cant stand them!

*~KhaLiD~* said...

U know I always think if they force u to wear 3abayas
then why not make them white ones =D
btw I have some intresting info about hay2ah in my blog!!
a9lan I started my blog cuz of those as$holes =[
hey u know what should u do :| go out and prove ur pont to the world Naked :|
(is crossing his fingers :p)
Gr8 Post!

-Human said...

I like it,, but I don't think it's right to give it a title like that! it's good after all!
you can fight me back out there in my blog: :P
have a good life!

8r8r-nsns said...

نعم أقر بأن افعال الهيئه قد تكون مزعجه أغلب الوقت
و قد يلصقون بك أفعال لم تنوي فعلها بيوم في حياتك
امنيتي ان امسك الهيئه و ألقي عليهم كلمه لعلى و عسى أن يتفهموا بدلا من ان ينقلوني الى "الجمس"
بأساليبهم الهمجيه هذي سينفرون كثيرا من الناس عن الدين بدلا من ان "يرجعوهم الى صوابهم" او كما يزعمون هم على الاقل.
مشكلتنا هنا في هذه البلاد ان مملكتنا العزيزه تحت سيطرة الهيئه و ذويهم
ان اعجب الهيئه و "ذويهم" قرار جديد فيقر به سائر المجتمع
ان لم يعجبهم القرار فهو قرار من شخص علماني لا يريد الا خراب و فساد المجتمع

لنأخذ على سبيل المثال زواج المسيار..كونهم اقروا بذلك فترى كثير من شباب المجتمع يقبل عليه
و لو اني اؤمن شخصيا بأن "ذويهم" يحرمون ما ارادوا و يحللون ما يرون مناسب لهم

لا ننسى أن هناك من هم في الهيئه
ولديهم الاسلوب الراقي

و لكن للأسف هم الاقله

Odd one out said...

There is nothing wrong with the abayja itself but it illustrates everything that is wrong with Saudi. Lack of free choice. Especially for woman.

What would actually happen if a woman were to walk around in Saudi without an abayja?

Sewmouse said...

Excellent post title. I feel the same way about the "religious right" here in my country. They would like to control everyone's thoughts, mode of dress, method of worship, and medical treatments.

Religion has it's place. The government is NOT that place, in my opinion. You cannot legislate morality - it is doomed to failure. Morality, the true love of God and the prophets comes from the soul, inside - not from authority figures outside.

A man should respect a woman because that is what God wants, not only because she is swaddled in layers of black cloth to the point of having no identity.

Unfortunately, nothing will change until Mothers start to demand respect and obedience from their sons, and teach them to respect and honor women. Those who are past the age of being "mothered" are beyond hope. But the next generation can be taught, if the mothers are willing to put forth the effort.

Mari said...

What is the Hay'a?

I'm from Norway so...

mana2eesh said...

religious police

Anonymous said...

I was going to say the same thing as sewmouse. If the men aren't going to change, it's up to the mothers to raise their sons differently. Remember that when you have children :) ....sis from the usa

Anonymous said...

The sad thing is that its getting worse in alot of places. In Baghdad women are now having to cover themselves up to protect themselves from death threats (even if their not muslim!). It wasn't like that before the invasion. The worlds heading through a rough patch of relgious extremism at the moment, and I don't like it one bit @.@;;

Cold said...

I hate them too, women arent supposed to wear abayas, they're supposed to wear whatever they want.

LETS GO FUCK THEM UP (I dont know why I said that)

sarooz said...

what's wrong with Abaya? ,,
If u r a muslim,u must take it all or just leave it..
Really I haven't seen people criticizes thier religion like muslims themselves.
We must be proud of Islam like other religion's followers.

Odd one out said...

Sarooz: There is nothing wrong with the abaya.

The problem is that you HAVE to wear it(Wearing black in 40+ C (Too optimistic?) temperatures cant be fun) no choice and alot of muslim
woman I know preffer not to wear it. They just cover their hair.

Nuri said...

Sarooz: "Really I haven't seen people criticizes thier religion like muslims themselves"

:-) you haven't travelled much!

Abu Sinan said...

Not to mention forcing someone to dress one way or another is unIslamic.

Intention is everything, so if the girl wearing abaya wishes she was dressed in a mini-skirt and half shirt, and would if allowed, she gains no reward.

Let people do what they want and let them deal with God. It is their business and doesnt belong to anyone else.

sarooz said...

odd one :
Totally agree. i mean we have to accept the rules of our country.
My wife wear abaya here with no complaining,while she just cover her hair abroad.
yes i've not,
but i do know much.

hebah said...

why can't they just leave women alone as wearing abayah's going to make any difference , anyway i hate those guys to. they've got to start leaving people to do thier own thing.

ubergirl87 said...

EVeryone who things we should "accept things as they are": Please show me a verse in the Quraan in which a "black Abaya" is made wajib. There are verses about Hijab, but nothing about what color or shape it is.
And once aagain I completely agree with Abu Sinan. It's all about intention. You can't force someone to pray or weara Hijab... It's not logical a9lan.

Yasir said...

I think it's ignorant, and I'm especially disappointed with Abu Sinaan, to say that just because intention is important that we can't legislate anything. We have laws and regulations in societies for the general well being of societies and not necessarily in order to suit the whims of fancies of specific individuals in that society. You are not the center of the universe nor is your life of any great significance; you are simply another clog in the machinery, another brick in the wall.

Western societies enact laws in accordance with what they "think" is right but their concept or right or wrong, of morality is always changing and hence their laws are constantly being changed and modified to suit the desires of the masses, as Emilie Durkheim said “Today’s deviance is tomorrows morality” (deviance is the crossing of accepted societal norms) Islamic societies, ideally, implement the sharia; the divine law. Allah ta3la sent various messenger at different times and a sharia for each of those times, sometimes new prophets brought with them a new sharia for a new time.

From 1400 years ago until the end of time Allah ta3la has given us a Sharia, the bases of which are the Qura'an and the teachings of the Prophet PBUH. This law is constant, unchanging, and suitable for our time, the time before us and the time after us. Nudity, bestiality, homosexuality, prostitution, riba (interest) and so many others have been immoral for us 1400 years ago, are immoral now and will be immoral for us until the end of time whereas all these have become or are becoming morality for the kuffar. What do you choose? The sharia that Allah ta3la has sent for us or our own man made laws that simply serve to legitimize immorality.

Ubergirl, have you ever tried going out wearing a white abaya? If you haven't then you can't claim that you're being forced to wear a black one. Also despite the many problems we have here, I do not believe that behaving like spoilt little children throwing tantrums will get anyone anywhere.

Rio said...

mashallah yasir, i agree with u 100% i couldn't have said it better myself. you saved me alot of time, jazak Allah khairan.

Rio said...

and in response to ubergirl, the evidences are below,


"O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the believing women to draw their outer garments around them (when they go out or are among men). That is better in order that they may be known (to be Muslims) and not annoyed..." (Qur'an 33:59)


"Ayesha (RA) reported that Asmaa the daughter of Abu Bakr (RA) came to the Messenger of Allah (SAWS) while wearing thin clothing. He approached her and said: 'O Asmaa! When a girl reaches the menstrual age, it is not proper that anything should remain exposed except this and this. He pointed to the face and hands." (Abu Dawood)

Huda said...

As Salaam Alaykum,

Ubergirl - I'm a convert to Islam. I grew up wearing mini-skirts and tank tops during the summertime. Religiously, my family wasn't that strict even though biblically as a christian you are taught to dress modestly.

Imagine, if you can, how it is now for me to change that - to try to find islamically acceptable clothing in an area where not one abaya store is to be found. Not only for me, but to teach my teenaged daughters..and do it in such a way that they understand and grow to love insha'Allaah the mark of a muslimah.

Abaya/jilbab is meant to mark you as a uniform, as a protection (if worn correctly - not tightly bodyhugging and glittering all over the place) as well as a uniform. To wear your faith with pride, that everyone would know you are a muslim.

The sahabiat had skirts in their wardrobes. They had shirts. They had hijabs. They had dresses. They had pants. They were commanded to wear Jalabee - the uniform of the muslim woman. Not their other clothing in their wardrobes, even though that was modest too.

Saudi is the only country in the world that women - all women - look like muslim women.

As for the black, it's because of this..

Narrated Umm Salamah, Ummul Mu'minin (Radhiallaahu Ánha): When the verse "That they should cast their outer garments over their persons" was revealed, the women of Ansar came out as if they had crows over their heads by wearing outer garments.

If the wives of the prophet (saw) are our best example..then it can't be denied that this is a good thing to do, to wear niqaab.

Having said that, it's my belief it's a sunnah - albeit a strong one. But I'm NOT a scholar and I know my views can be disputed.

I gave salams the other day to a woman, who had what looked like a hejab on her. Then I watched as her sikh husband walked up to her. I was a bit mortified with myself....but in truth, how could I have known. Many indo/pak women wear shalway kameez, not abaya. It's hard to tell who is who.

In the heat, it is hard to wear the abaya etc. I just came back a few months ago from the gulf. But...hellfire is so much hotter.

If my Lord commanded me to cover and since He created me, He is closer to me than even my veins - is it possible that He knows my struggles, that He knows what is best for me??

Abaya is not such a huge issue, I think.

Is it more that you don't have the rights that are yours as a muslim woman - such as physical activities, classes at the masjids, books (I know many are censored and I can't figure out why, for some of them) things like that...the honest-to-goodness choices that as a muslimah are your rights to enjoy, to live your life? (add driving to that...)

I think the abaya would seem minor if you were given those.

I wish I had known of Islam as a teenager...I wish I had known male psychology earlier in life too, because it's echoed islamically in what we're taught as women. Sure we joke about "why can't men just control themselves" and in truth, they need to lower their gaze too, but face facts. They're visual, and you're pretty. (I'm guessing.)

Let your future husband delight in you - but protect yourself from those who would take what you have, use it, and toss it.
Those freedoms you want, I don't think it's about an abaya. I think it's about maturing, realizing that your faith is meant to help you live your life, to guide you insha'Allaah.

I think it's also about the attitude prevalent in a male dominated society (such as Saudi) that often takes their women for granted, and comes across as very two-faced. There are rules for both genders, as you well know. If those were enforced on both sides, perhaps you would feel vindicated?

I also think it's important to remember that those whispers in your ears (all of our ears, for that matter) that come from the shaytaan are meant to STOP us from living according to Allaah (SWT). All the influences you guys see from here, from wherever - they're not pure. They're not going to help you. They look sweet, taste sweet..and do damage.

Why do you think so many women are coming to Islam, in the west?

Because we love to give up our so-called "freedoms"?

Or maybe because we recognize something else. That guidance can only come from Allaah (SWT). And you can't take some of it, selectively. Islam was given to you in it's entirety - not meant to be manipulated to whatever you want eh. I think Allah (SWT) knew what would be going on in the year 2006. No trends, no "new" translations, none of it changes that sometimes we just need to obey.

At least you get to obey surrounded by other women also obeying. It's a lot harder to be the only one...really, it is. My daughters would trade places with you, in that respect.

Huda said...

Sorry Ubergirl - that kinda came off as a lecture and I didn't mean it that way. I've learned to have plenty of fun (abayas included) and grin, just I've had to temper my normally-outgoing-nature, even down to who I smile at.

Saudi guys take it the wrong way. Go figure. A smile, I mean.

Incidently I'm a young mom so it's not like I don't have a clue - while it's true we live in different countries, Islamically we're under the same restrictions. Wish I could help you kiddo - change is definitely needed in some respects in our world, but look at it this way. You've loved, you have a roof over your head and you're educated.

That's more than so many have.

Here, have a chocolate :)

Nuri said...

So I see from the last commenters that people in the West are just "Kuffar" and love bestiality and have no morals. And also, it's good to see that only saudis are true muslims, according to Huda: "Saudi is the only country in the world that women - all women - look like muslim women". I guess it's looks that count, right Huda?

Yasir said...

Nuri, you represent everything that is wrong with Muslims.

Not unlike all those dolts from Arab News (Mishkas, Lubna, Batarafi, the al Maeenas et al) who publish utter garbage, who simply dissipate propaganda, perpetuate stereotypes or engage in spreading mind numbing, half baked, ill conceived ideas and notions, that have no bases and which make absolutely no sense nor make life easier for the everyday man. I would do anything to be locked up in a room with those half wits and bash them silly, refuting every ignorant word that comes out of their mouths.

What I said in my post, no sociologist or psychologist or historian would ever disagree with but they, if they are not Muslim, would hold that deviance is a GOOD thing and that pushing the boundaries of our morality would promote the well being of society but we as Muslims know otherwise.

This is simple logic, not rocket scientist. I appeal to you to think about relationships between events, the causes, the results and effects of your action, on yourself, on others and on your environment. We as Muslims have to wake up and smell the roses. Think, be socially and politically active, understand and accept what it means to be Muslim and think about how we can help our brothers and sisters. Personal freedom is meaningless while our brothers and sisters are so oppressed and are being massacred by the so called "defenders of freedom".

Each and every one of us is simply a small part of a great machinery and our little struggles, or injustices we might've faced are meaningless. We work with a bigger and nobler aim in mind; all these minor inconveniences that we face should not throw us off track.

Engineer Sighted said...

I have a few questions - It was mentioned that Saudi Arabia is the only place where all the women look like Muslim women. Are all Saudi women Muslim women? If the abaya is a "uniform" of the faith, is it ok for women who are not Muslim to wear it? Do they become more faithful by being compelled to wear it? Does being surrounded by people who outwardly appear faithful make you more faithful? Can spiritual challenges help you grow?

Cold said...

The only reson why women should wear abaya is cuz the guys 3yoonahom 6aweela >8(

I feel your pain ladies.

ubergirl87 said...

I would like to remind everyone that I am human. Assuming that the Abaya or the Hayá will help me avoid sin is naive. Because they are doing just the opposite, with me and everyone I know. Someone may call me 'weak hearted'or say that I don't have enough faith, and I don't really care.
The Abaya in Saudi society is not a religious uniform. It is something that our ancestors used to brag that their girls were religious. I am not talking about Sahabiyat, I am talking about our great-grandparents.
The Hadith and the Aya somebody mentioned say NOTHING about the Abaya having to be black or worn on your head or any other way. I can wear a Hijab, a blue Kaftan, and a pair of baggy jeans and that would be be a Hijab Islami in my opinion.
I don't want to prance about in a bikini for God's sake! I would just like the most stupid, idiotic right that I have been robbed of! CHOICE IN WARDROBE.
Aren't there more important rights? Like voting or driving? YES YES YES. Just because I didn't mention them doesn't mean it doesn't bother me that I don't have them.
You want me to go out in a white abaya? I would get kidnapped, raped and murdered! And what's worse, people would think I was doing it for attention. They would say I deserved what happened to me.
I haven't said we shouldn't do as the Sharia commands, I am saying WHERE in the Sharia does it say women should be second class citezens, and should cover themselves from head to toe? WHERE in the Sharia does it say alAmr BilMa'rouf is shouting "Ya Fasiqua!!" in the streets?
I know my Sharia, and it doesn't say either of things.

Engineer Sighted: Do they become more faithful by being compelled to wear it (the Abaya)? Not in the least.
Does being surrounded by people who outwardly appear faithful make you more faithful? Absolutely not. And I know people who are living proof.

Huda said...

Nuri - according to the scholars, abaya/jilbab is fard. So when I say that saudi women give the look of being muslim...I speak from that viewpoint.

No person could say that only Saudi Arabian citizens (women) give the appearance of being muslim...I just stated that if you look around the kingdom, they're all following Islam, at least on the outside.

Clothing doesn't mean there is emaan.

And you're right, in terms of not having choices - colors were definitely worn by the women during the time of the prophet (pbuh).

Does a government have the right to enforce what color you wear, as long as you adhere to an outwardly islamic appearance?

I think most of us as women would give that a resounding "NO".

Yasir said...

The abyaa is not simply to protect you or to honor you, or to "protect you from sin". Like I said twice before, don't think about individuals... think about society. Do you know that if a person is drinking inside his house then you can't do anything? If our laws were all about "protecting people from sin" then does that make sense? No! And you going out without your abaya is a source of fitnah for men. Like it or not men have desires, I remember what someone told me once about a certain scholar, the scholar said "Leave me with a room full of money and I will not touch it but never leave me alone in a room with a woman." Even the religious people are human and they have desires, do not think that just because someone is a scholar that he will never have bad thoughts about you. Protect yourself, protect others and make sure that society does not rot.

Saudi Arabia has it's problems, many women suffer because of that but reason with yourself. Is all this you type going to help you in anyway? Is it going to benefit society? Will you be able to solve women's problems here? NO! Feminism is a cancer that destroys societies.

Men and women are different, we are not equal. Equality is never the aim, there is no equality between the sexes just as there is no equality between religions or between adherents of different religions. It is justice and the well being of the mankind that is the aim. Sometimes justice is in being unequal and who is more just than our lord who has said "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.).".

You as muslimahs have rights and obligations and we Muslim men have rights and obligations. Yes, many times your rights have been denied and many times we do not fulfill our obligations to you but what is the proper way of addressing these problems? Do you not think it is better that we really educate ourselves about what our rights and obligations are as Muslims? Is it not better that we teach others about how we should conduct ourselves and how we should behave with our spouses and our families?

What we need to do is go back to what made the Arabs great. As Syed Qutb Rahimahullah explained that the Arabs were nothing before Islam and they have gone back to being nothing because they left Islam. Islam is what made the Arabs the best people on earth. Teach the shabaab what Islam is, help them get married so that they don't harass women, give them a support group. Why do we try to mix east and west? Why do we hold the young men in our society back from marrying early? Why should the normal amount for Mahr be SR25,000? This article might be a good read

My noble sisters, you are the mothers of our future generation. You are the ones who can help us get another Umar or Ali. You are the future of our people and a source of honor and pride, don't be deceived by the deception of shaytaan. Hold fast to the rope of Islam and do not let go because there is honor only in what Allah has ordained for us. We have a time allotted on this earth, we can either choose to be one of those relegated to the dust heaps of Islamic history, of absolutely no consequence in our time or the time after us or we can work towards, and be a factor in, raising this ummah to the position of glory it once held.

I apologize for the very long comments but it really hurts seeing what we have become.

Anonymous said...

Engineer - all women, Muslim or not must wear an abaya in KSA.

Rio said...

well ubergirl, the ayahs are there not from me, but Allah. so if u doubt his word then thats something else. but it seems here that ur shopping for fatwas, that suit your daily lifestyle. thats fine by all means everybody has free will. but if u asked for the evidences and they were produced. it clearly seems here that ur actions are based on whims and desires. imagine this, a male wearing a pink thoub, how homosexual would that look? im not having a go or shouting at you or giving u a dars deen, just saying what i think should be said.

Anonymous said...

Why would you get kidnapped if you wore a white Abaya?

Anonymous said...

All religion should be banned it only creates problems especially for women. People should be free to do what they want as long as it doesn't hurt anybody. God does not exist it's all make believe anyway.

Cold said...

My cousin is m7ajjaba and when she travels she wears jeans, a shirt with long sleeves, and a 6ar7a.
And she's all coverd up, thats not 7aram, right?
This is what women should do, wear what you want almohim inno it covers you up

PS:sorry i commented 3 times, 3a99abt :p

Jo said...

I think it speaks volumes that this comment section has turned into a discussion about clothing rather than what the actual post is about - RP.

The religious police are causing more harm than good in this country. And that really should come as no surprise since the only reason they're supposely "promoting virtue and preventing vice" is because they're mostly a bunch of druggies and criminals - who managed to cut short their prison sentences by memorising the Qur'an - and the only place which would hire these goons is of course the HAY'AH because so long as they've memorized the Qur'an then that makes them good Muslims (well if all I had to do was memorize the Qur'an to get out of prison and get me a good paying job then why the hell not?!).

I think that people are now getting to see the hay'ah for what they really are (can't remember the name of the girl, could be Ameena, who had been taken by the RP and it turned into one big scandle for them).

and btw uber i have heard of a hadeeth which suggests that women do have to be covered in black, but i've also heard that women don't even have to cover their hair - apparently women fe aljahlyah used to show off their bossoms so the ayyah actually refers to covering your chest bas and dressing modestly y3ni. Anyway, at the end of the day God knows with this stuff... all i know is that i don't cover now and i most likely never will and if that bothers the rest of my so-called Ummah well tough luck.

Yasir said...

Forget about the RP, some are good and others are bad but for Gods sake, please research before you talk.

In Islam we have something called "Ijmaa" or the consensus of the Ummah. The prophet PBUH informed us that this ummah will never agree upon an error and based on that ijmaa is also a valid form of evidence. There has been and there is consensus amongst the Muslims that Hijaab includes the covering of hair as well as wearing clothes that do not reveal the shape of the body... and this includes not wearing pants, whether baggy or tight. There might've been nutjobs who have argued otherwise, as there are now but they are insignificant and the vast majority of Muslims have agreed upon this and the Sahaba have agreed upon this and the Ulema have agreed upon this. So if someone comes now and says that the Hijaab doesn't include the covering of hair than you know that person is, knowingly or unknowingly, an agent of Shaytaan.

There is valid ikhtilaaf on whether the face and hand of a Muslimah are to be covered or not. This however does not mean we follow whatever suits us, we should read and study why the scholars disagree and with an open mind decide which opinion seems stronger to you. Humans will accept your belief at face value but remember Allah ta3la knows your real intentions. The Prophet PBUH said "Actions will be judged by intentions, and everyone will be recompensed according to what he intended." If you follow an opinion because you have studied it and sincerely believe that it is the correct opinion than that is good but do not follow an opinion simply because it's easier. If you want to see a discussion on whether the niqaab is fard, wajib or simply mustahab then you can check this…

Making what is haraam, halaal is a very serious issue, it is kufr to make what is haraam, halaal or vice versa. As an example there are some people who have made the committing of zina halaal and this takes those people out of the fold of Islam but sleeping around while accepting that it is haraam does not make a person a kaafir.

Nuri said...

Yasir: "Nuri, you represent everything that is wrong with Muslims"

I don't get it.

Odd one out said...

Yasir: "Feminism is a cancer that destroys societies."

So people that wants equal rights between the sexes destroy societies?

Wow you seem to lack any kind of common sence.

There is so many things you wrote there that is SOOO incredibly wrong.

Anonymous said...

All religion is bullshit, but the Three monothiestic faiths (judaism, Xianity, and Islam) are by far the worst. Goddamit, 'god'/'allah' is imaginary, grow up already.

Yasir said...

'Odd one out', feminism IS a cancer. There can never be equality because we are not the same. Your functions as a human being are different to our functions as human beings then how can you demand equality? Are you off your rockers? Can men bear children or can women inseminate men? Women’s structure is generally different to mens, their pelvic bone is different, her stature is smaller, she does not grow facial hair, she has mammary glands so that she can feed her young, she is more emotional and you tell me that we are equal. Are you mad? Please get the crap out of your mind; you have been completely conditioned to think in a particular direction. Why can't you think for yourself?

Feminism IS a cancer because it demands equality when there is no equality to be had and if you insist on equality then you are going to destroy society. Men and women have been created differently to play different roles. Islam obliges men to provide for women. Should I demand my wife provide for me under the pretext of equality? Do I demand that she bear children and provide for me as well? Do I demand that she continue providing for me during her periods? YOU and others like you lack common sense to see the different roles we are to play in order to have a healthy society. What is it I have said that is "SOOO incredibly wrong"?

ubergirl87 said...

I got bored reading all the comments, so I won't even bother finishing.
Because all some of you people do is twist my words around to suit your idea of what a "fasiqua" would say. Well I'm glad you're enjoying yourselves.
Rio, please reread the Adilla you mentioned. And then read what I had to say about them. And if you STILL don't get it, I suggest you stop reading my blog.

Yasir: I don't understand what you're trying to say. I haven't said we should all become nudists and forget Islam. I am saying why the hell don't the people of Saudi Arabia wake up and smell the roses? Religion is BEING USED to TAME EVERYONE and mold them into what "the man" wants! And you know who "the man" are. I'm not going into that.
And I have a suggestion: since it's THE MEN who are dangerous and cannot control themselves, why don't we turn the tables on them? Lock them up in their houses. Cover their faces when they're out in public (so no-one seduces them.) It's only logical.
But wait... I have more sense than that! They're human too. I don't want to ruin their lives and treat them like animals.
Please remember, just like Hijab is wajib, 3'A6' ALBA9AR is wajib. Just like it's "hard"for men not to stare at anything that has two legs and a uterus, it's hard for women not to dress however they want. Very hard.
All Allah has said is that men and women are not the smae. Allah has never said they are not equal. If you believe you as a man are entitled to more rights than I, because I am a woman, then we have a real problem here. I think that by believeing you are better than someone (let alone a whole GENDER) then you are seriously disturbed. What have you done in your lifetime that makes you better than me or any other woman? Are you better than the Sahabiyat? Do you deserve more rights than they do/did just because you happened to be born with mlae genetalia?

You might not have meant any of that, but it sure as hell looks like you did to me.

Rio said...

ur chatting buckwass about color..nowhere does it mention the color or size or style of the garment. but if uwant to wear pink with polka dots then go ahead be our guest. im sure ull chicken out. but u said to give u daleel and thats the daleel to covering. but its quite obvious now ur clutching at straws trying to catch out people.

Yasir said...

I said and I repeat, Men and women are different and hence they have different rights and obligations. Do you remember the hadeeth about when a sahaba asked the Prophet PBUH who had the most right over him? What did the Prophet PBUH say? Who did the Prophet PBUH say had the most right over him and that too THREE times? It is your [b]right[/b] to be clothed, to be fed and to be taken care of. It is your right to take anything you want of your sons. It is an [b]obligation[/b] on your husband to provide you with food and if you cannot cook than he has to cook or get someone else to cook. Your wealth is [b]your[/b] wealth, you money is your money and no one can lay claim to a single dime of it. My wealth is my sisters wealth, my mothers wealth, my wifes wealth, my aunts wealth, my nieces wealth and my daughters wealth. I have an [b]obligation[/b] to take care of them. You are not obliged to fight when the ameer calls up troops for jihad, you are not obliged to fight when someone invades your land and you are not obliged to go to the defense of Muslims where they are being oppressed. Your only obligation is to be pleasing to your husband. THAT IS IT! And then you complain simply because men have been given guardianship over you.

And you confuse rights and obligations with a person’s character. MEN AND WOMEN HAVE BEEN CREATED DIFFERENTLY IN ORDER THAT THEY MAY PLAY THEIR ASSIGNED ROLES AND TO PLAY DIFFERENT ROLES THEY HAVE DIFFERENT RIGHTS AND DIFFERENT OBLIGATIONS. Make sense now? It is not about who has more right or less right, it is about who has been given what rights and who have what obligations. It can even be argued that men have fewer rights and more obligations then why are you acting so ungrateful?

I do not understand your numbers thing “3'A6' ALBA9AR” so I will not comment. Again this is NOT about anyone being better than anyone else. I never said I was better than you and I sincerely believe that I am not and neither did I ever say I was better than anyone else.

I have had no say over what my gender would be nor of what time I would be born but I am here and I am a male and as such I have certain obligations I have to fulfill and I have certain actions I must take in my time on this earth. I was born in this time for a reason and I was created a make for a reason, it is not in vain nor is it ‘luck’. My being male does not make me better than anyone else but it does give me certain rights, obligations and privileges that have not been given to you. At the same time you have been assigned certain rights, obligations and privileges that I do not have. Be grateful to Allah ta3la for what you have and stop being so stubborn.

About you comparing men not being able to control their desires with womens choice of clothing than that is sheer stupidity. Mens desires are a biological function, it is there and that is why the prophet PBUH said that he is not leaving behind a greater fitnah (for men) than women. You have been asked to cover up properly so cover up properly, we have been asked to lower our gazes and many of us do lower our gazes. Have you been ordered to lower you gaze? My sister, do you like the shabab you were complaining about in your previous post? Do you not wish that they had some decency and dignity and respect for their sisters in Islam? They are not fulfilling their obligations and they are trampling on the rights of others. Do you wish to be in the same category as them?

Be dignified my sister, speak and act in a manner that is befitting a Muslimah. Change society in a way you have been asked to, raise your children in accordance with the sunnah and teach them to be good Muslims. Encourage the men in your house to be straight and to follow the straight path.

Anonymous said...

Yasir what did your mommy do to you? You are a misogynist you really hate women don't you? Your Prophet was a pedophile who married some little girl because he was afraid of women his own age. He was not a good guy. Why don't you just blurt out how you really feel about women and the rights they deserve.

"I really hate and distrust all women and they're sexuality terrifies me that is why I want them to be covered up and mistreated. I will feel better about myself as a man if this is so"

taqo said...

Anon - The prophet (SAW) also married a woman 25 years his senior. So I dont know where you are getting all of this "Your Prophet was a pedophile who married some little girl because he was afraid of women his own age" crap from.
Its funny how when you non-muslims attack Islam, the 1st thing you bring up is the whole "Pedophile" card.
1400 years ago, I imagine it was something quite normal and wide-spread for younger girls to get married, to older men.
And not just in "Arabia".
Its just that by todays standards, its not accepted. And frankly, I would never marry my daughter off to a man old enough to be her father....but again, I was raised and brought up in a different time, and era.
Lots of things that were normal then, are not normal now. And vice versa. Thats just the way things are. Get over it, please.
Another thing.
Aisha (RAA) being married to, and raised with the Prophet (SAW), was of great benefit to the Muslim Ummah. Seeing that she was with him since her childhood, most of the times, she knew alot about Fiqh and rulings, that the companions knew of not, after the prophets death.
They would come to her, asking about many different issues.
You are clearly ignorant of many things in Islam, and you are just commenting here to annoy people.

I know this has NOTHING to do with the Original Topic, that Uber has written here. But yes. You just really "Pissed me off", and I wanted to say something to your dumb behind. Sue me.

ubergirl87 said...

I must have misunderstood this: "Men and women are different, we are not equal. Equality is never the aim, there is no equality between the sexes"

But nonetheless,I am glad you cleared it up, Yasir.

By the way, 3'a6' ilba9ar means lowering your gaze. And I was trying to point out that just as much as Hijab is wajib, lowering your gaze is wajib. When I am out wearing my all black abaya, in my Hijab, I get harrassed by men all the time. So you see, wearing an Abaya doesn't make a woman undesirable. You could be covered in black from head to toe, and I guarantee a man will find something to look at.
The fact is, when a one woman in a hundred is wearing an Abaya, I doubt she'll get much attention. But when every single woman in the country is wearing one... You get the picture.
And by the way the black Abaya is MUSTAHABA, it is the HIJAB that is wajib. NOT the Abaya.

I am very grateful that I was born a female. I never said I wasn't. I am grateful for everything in my life. But this is not about being grateful, this is about the fact that I have been deprived of many basic human rights all IN THE NAME of Islam, and because I was born a female.(Notice I said IN THE NAAAAAAME OF ISLAM.) Like driving, for example. Islam does not say a woman cannot drive a car or any other kind of vehicle.
When have I said I wasn't grateful for being born a woman? Never. You keep changing the subject.
When will you learn to tell the difference between what ALLAH has said, and what the Haya' or a Shiekh has said? I don't know about anyone else, but I pray to ALLAH and no-one else. Not Abdulwahab, not Ibn Baaz... And not even the mighty Haya'.

"About you comparing men not being able to control their desires with womens choice of clothing than that is sheer stupidity."
Is it? When were you last a woman? Because only when you are a woman can you make that sort of statement. Women are born with a desire to look their best. Why do you think many women are in love with jewelery and clothing? Even our Prophet (Salla Alluhu Alaihi Wa Salam) has said so: أن المرأة مفطورة على حب الحليّ

" It can even be argued that men have fewer rights and more obligations"
Thank you VERY much. I needed a good laugh.
Please enlighten me. Point out the rights that I have that are more than what you have in THIS country.
No, really. I'm interested.

For the 489373027th time:

!n$@n!tY said...

في واحد ناقل حجاج قال لهم اذا شديتو حيلكم معي بنرجع قبل العيد

just trying to lighten up the mood here. carry on.

ubergirl87 said...


Jo said...

A quote from my beloved Meesh, "It's funny that those arguing for the hejab are men".

Uber wesh rayek bas you come over and we have ourselves one big orgy :P and don't worry ma 3ndna hay'ah hena, they've been banned :P

Anonymous said...

So the prophet was not a pedophile because he also slept with women makes no sense. Just because it was considered normal back then doesn't make it right no matter what era you come from. He was a pedophile or else he wouldn't of married a little girl. Aisha was forced to marry this guy I doubt she enjoyed the experience I know of no little girls who wish to have sex with an older man they've never met. Where is your empathy for this child Taqwa?

Yasir said...

Ubergirl, we are not concerned with what you think or with what I think. We are Muslims and Allah t3la says in Surah Noor, that the believers say سمعنا وأطعنا We obey Allah to the best of our abilities and do not question nor look for loopholes. Those people who harass will keep on harassing you because they're ignorant but will you not do what you are obliged to do simply because you feel it doesn’t achieve the results you want? When you do not fulfill an obligation you are taking away the right of another person. One persons obligation is another persons right. I hate going to the markets because of all the women who liberally perfume themselves, wear high heels and tight abayas. I need to buy driving shoes but I've been putting off going to the malls for months now.

No one said that the Abaya was Fardh. Understand the meaning of Hijaab and implement it.

Please define "basic human rights" and where did you get your definition from. We have to cleanse our minds of all these external western concepts and ideas that serve only to push us towards deviance.

Driving is a privilege, not a right. And women not being allowed to drive here is an example of what I call 'positive discrimination'. Is anyone under 21 allowed to vote? Why? Is anyone under the age of 18 allowed to have a full driving license? Why? In England the minimum age for drinking is 18 and you have to be at least 16 before you can legally buy a pack of cigarettes. Is this equality? No it's not, so does this mean that under the guise of equality we let anyone do whatever they want?

All three of my sisters have licenses and sometimes they drive me around but would I ever let them drive alone here in Jeddah? No, never. Tell me honestly that you are fine with driving here. Anyone who's been here and has seen what happens on Tahlia and around girls schools will understand what I'm talking about. A few posts back you commented on all the sexually frustrated women at your college, what happens when they get cars? Won’t it make it easier for them to sleep around and what happens if they become pregnant? We have to establish Islam properly and take care of all other problems before we address this issue of women driving. Changing Saudi society and bringing it more in line with Islamic principles should be our aim and then only can women get the rights they deserve. If you wish to go the western way and demand 'liberation' for women then you are just going to create much bigger headaches for yourself.

You also commented saying that 19 is too young for a girl to get married, why is that? Would you rather that she become a lesbian or that she starts sleeping around with guys who will never be serious about marrying them? Don't you see what's happening in Egypt or even in Kuwait? There are so many guys who need to get married but cannot get married because the women or their families refuse to them simply because they're not of the same tribe. Is this Islam? We have to solve so many issues first.

I realize that you mentioned Sheikh Bin Baz and Sheikh Abdul Wahab contemptuously. Why is that you so dislike them? Do you know who came up with the term "Wahabbi"? It was the British and they did not use it to refer to Ale Saud or their people but rather the Scholars and students of Deoband and others in India. These are the people in India who were fighting British colonial rule and the British used this term "Wahabbi" to try and turn other sufi Muslims against them. To try and claim that what these fighters were upon was not true Islam but Islam imported from somewhere else. Imam Abdul Wahab was a muwahid who fought against shirk and bidaa in the jazeera. During his time there were people in the land of the two holy mosques who used to pray to stones and trees. Sheikh Bin Baz Rahimahullah had been blind since the age of 16 and was greatly respected by everyone during his time, even Sheikh Abul Hasan Ali Nadawi of India respected him and eulogized him when the sheikh, Rahimahullah, died. He did have mistakes and he did issue some strange fatwaas but who hasn't? Name one scholar who hasn't made a mistake. One of the reasons I love sheikh Bin Baz so much is because when everyone was saying that the sun was at stationary in the center of out solar system, sheikh Ibn Baz said that anyone who says it was a kaafir because Allah ta3la says in the Qura'an about the sun and the moon " Each one is traveling in an orbit with its own motion." All these modernists were up in arms and used to mock him but now we know that the sun does indeed have an orbit of its own.

Also, how will you understand Islam if not by what the scholars teach? Will you interpret the Qura'an yourself? What about ahadeeth? Why do we need Ibn Hajar or al Nawawi or Ibn Kathir or Mujahid or Tabari? Why do we need Imam Abu Haneefa, Shafi'ee, Malik, Ahmed Ibn Hanbal, Ibn Taymiyyah, Ibn al Qayyim, Ibn Qudamah and others? Why do we need them if not to understand the Qura'an and ahadeeth the way the Prophet taught and his companions understood? Why have these scholars spent their entire lives studying and teaching Islam if we could all just simply pick up the books and understand them ourselves? And Allah ta3la says in the Qura'an فَاسْأَلُواْ أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِن كُنتُمْ لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ

ubergirl87 said...

I cannot beleive you are serious.

Ofcourse I am "fine" with driving here! Why the hell wouldn't I be. I cannot simply define basic human rights, it needs more thought. But it certainly includes the right to provide myself with transport. Yes our youth is sexually frustrated. If they're going to have sex they won't let a thing like not being able to drive stop them, Yasir. Trust me. There are many other (easier) ways than driving to a bofriend's house to have sex.
You cannot possibly be in your right mind comparing giving minors the right to vote or drink with giving a woman a key to her car. It pains me to see that people who think like you exist, and are not ashamed to say things like that. WE ARE HUMAN BEINGS. Unless you'd like to personally pay for my and every other woman's driver, you do not have the right to take away our right to drive a freaking CAR. Many people cannot afford drivers, you know. And even when they can, it is absolutely frustrating to bring someone in from another country, that doesn't speak your language, and have him practice driving on YOUR CAR, that YOU PAYED FOR, and have him wreck it a couple of times before getting the hang of it.
I will not discuss this issue with you any further. I don't want you to argue. I don't want to even HEAR what you have to say. It's way too painful. Wallahi.

You either love arguments, or I don't understand why you brought the marriage thing into this. I have never spoken about tribes or any of that SHIT! And YES, 19 is too young for mariage. That is my opinion. Have you considered that women might also be turning gay because of the men in their lives? I've seen it happen. Sexist men who lock their daughters and wives up and treat them like slaves. Some of them even say the things you have said. Guess what their daughters and wives are now? Full-fledged lesbians. Your worst nightmare.
Marriage is not the answer. Sexual education, however, is.
That is my personal opinion and I am sticking to it.

"I realize that you mentioned Sheikh Bin Baz and Sheikh Abdul Wahab contemptuously."
You must have caught that in the tone of my voice.. Oh wait, you couldn't have.
Then you must be able to magically read emotions through what people type.
Please watch what you say. I only said that I pray to ALLAH AND NOT THEM. Not any different from what you do, I presume.
And I STILL pray to Allah and not them. I will stand by that 'till the day I die.
And I believe Islam is very, very clear. We do not need to ask 396 sheikhs to make a fatwa on zakaat or Hajj, or even Hijab. I agree, some things need to be asked about, but most things are very clear.
Mochness (my fellow blogger) once told me that the excess of questions popular in our culture reminded her of how the Jews kept asking their prophet about the Naqua they had to kill. They kept asking qustions and complicating things, whereas had they obeyed from the beginning it wouln't have happened.
I didn't say I want to creat my own releigion and interpret Islam in my own way. Please stop twisting my words around and trying to find something to argue with me about. I'm getting bored.
If you agree that the Abaya isn't wajib, why are we having this conversation in the first place?
I don't understand what your point is, (other than that you are a sexist and not ashamed to admit it it) and quite frankly I don't WANT to understand what your point is.
I do not agree with anything you're saying, and all you're doing is frustrating me and helping me fall deeper into my depression. I had heard that people who think like you existed, but I was hoping it was an urban legend. Apparently not.
Don't reply to this. I'm tired of getting frustrated over things that you acuse me of.

Nuri said...

"I hate going to the markets because of all the women who liberally perfume themselves, wear high heels and tight abayas. I need to buy driving shoes but I've been putting off going to the malls for months now"

Really? I never thought I'd read something like this... what scares you so much? Are those tight abayas so enticing? Maybe arab men are born with extra testosterone

ubergirl87 said...

Oh, and Jo: I'd fuckin' love to.

Anonymous said...

Yasir is obviously turned off by women. Unfortunetly for him, Islam prohibits homosexuality.

You a bit frustrated there, Yassy?

Abu Sinan said...

Yasir writes "I'm especially disappointed with Abu Sinaan,"

Please excuse the copious tears I am shedding at the moment. If I die it is because I have cried so much that they have created a pool of water and my computer has electricuted me.

me said...

Uber, you SHOULD be scared of the religious police. Be mad all you want but don't take risks -- your principle didn't have the power to lock you up, these guys do!!! I hope someday you can help change Saudi Arabia but don't do it from behind bars!:)

me said...

PS: Yasir is one reason why I support the right to bear arms. If fundamentalist crazies like him (Christian (see The Handmaid's Tale), Muslim, what have you) tried to conquer the United States, armed men AND women could shoot the bastards and keep our freedoms safe from these psychopaths.

yasir said...

Abu Sinaan, maybe someone your age should act.. let's say with a bit more maturity?

Ubergirl, read back what I've written and please don't make any assumptions about me. I never accused you of anything, it may be that you have unintnetionally assumed many things I had not said and drawn many conclusions that I had not intended. Maybe it is because I am not clear or because I do not elaborate enough, my apologies for that. And regarding the comment about sheikh bin baz, the construct of your sentence led me to understand it in a very different way than you had apparently intended, I again apologize for that.

Nuri, I will not go into what 'entices' me or not but I will say that they have made a mockery of Hijaab. Just like all those sisters on Edgeware Road who have a headscarf on yet wear the tightest clothes, some so tight that you can actually see their underwear and what makes me cringe even more than that is when I hear people making comments about the size, texture and feel of the sisters various body parts and even worse is that many of these sisters are from the gulf. It is as though this great religion has been reduced to symbolism, I wear a headscarve and that is enough, I have two tiny mowed hair on my chin and that is my beard, a token beard. Tokenism as a way of escaping obligations and duties.

'me', it's only when people fail to refute logical arguments that they resort to ad hominem attacks such as exhibited by yourself. Why don't you attempt to logically refute me instead of just blabbering aimlessly? I can think of a number of seemingly logical arguments one could come up with which are better than your empty words, devoid of any real substance and lacking in intellectual quality.
When the winds of logic fail to power your rusty craft,
you use rhetorical magic to cover your dodgy 'crap'.

Anonymous said...

leash ubergirl te6ma7e innik tmshi b miniskirt o hald shirt????so ur not a muslim and first of all..r u wearing HIJAB??if not so shut ur mouth and talk about this anymore plz..its ur problem if u dont like the dont wear it if u want...

yasir said...

Anonymous, I think you've gone seriously overboard. You've made takfeer of a Muslimah when you know nothing about her. May Allah guide you.

Simply not covering does not make a person a kaafir, it makes her a sinner. Just like the person who smokes or someone who listens to music. And even those who drink or those who gamble or those who fornicate are sinners not apostates. This is what the khawaarij did, they made takfeer on people for sins and this is not from Islam. And moreover the sister does indeed cover and does believe she can do hijaab without having to wear an abaya, what her definition of Hijaab is, I'm not sure but she is not a kaafira and you have to repent for what you have said.

me said...

Yasir, you think I should not have the same legal rights as a man. You think that I should happy in my proper "role" as a woman -- i.e., under the dominion of my male relatives. Furthermore, you think I should be happy about this and not try to live my life freely, but instead accept that the difference between men and women's "roles." You would be happy to legislate this on all people since it is the only "right" way. I live in a free society and I would rather die than live in the world you would force upon me. So, as long as fundamentalist religious types don't try to force others to live "the only right way" (the fundamentalist Christian way, the fundamentalist Muslim way, etc.), more power to them. Once they try to take over the government and MAKE people live "the only right way," that's when free people must defend themselves.

yasir said...

Listen genius, no one is forcing anything on you. I was discussing it with a Muslimah, someone who is a believer. You on the other hand are most likely a disbeliever so you won't understand.

Let me enlighten you as to the evolution of societies. Societies over time change, moral boundries get pushed and hence the definition of morality changes. My argument is this; Were your grandparents right regarding homosexuality or are you right? What makes you right and them wrong? I've been telling idiots for the past four years that soon beastiality, incest and sex with underage children will all become morality and these ignoramuses were all up in arms, accusing me of scare mongering and being stupid. But now look at the danish pedophile political party which, under the guise of "freedom of speech" promotes pedophillia and this is the start of how every immorality becomes morality in western democracies. Now are you right or will your grandchildren be right about all this? You answer that.

We as Muslims believe that we were created and sent to this earth and that our Lord has also sent us down a moral code, a law that is constant. What was immoral and wrong 1400 years ago is immoral and wrong today. We also know that the roles of men and women have been defined for us and our rights and obligations layed down. I do not expect you to follow our laws unless you reside in our lands. Frankly you can do whatever you wish to do as long as it doesn't affect us in any way. But Muslims need to be aware of what our religion is and what is stand for. If you do not like it then you can go jump off a bridge for all I care.

Throughout the ages, God has sent man a different law that is suitable for their time and that will help their societies. Allah gave Solomon a law that was different to the law He gave Moses, which was different to the law he gave for the people of Muhammd, which was different to the law He gave to the other prophets. Until 1400 years ago until the end of time, the law sent to Muhammad PBUH will be applicable and if you study it and understand it you will understand that it is not 'outdated' or 'barbaric' as some claim, rather it is the best solution to all of mankinds problems.

Anonymous said...

Homosexuality has been common right back to the ancestrial greeks. If you think that accepting that two consenting adult males (or females) should be allowed to marry is the same as accepting bestiality, incest and child sex, then you are just retarded.

me said...

I'm glad to hear you say that Yasir. At least you don't want to force all people to follow Muslim law. However, I still think it is wrong for you to say that everyone who lives in Muslim countries must follow Muslim law. Muslims may, and do, disagree on the proper interpretation of such law. Some think a woman must wear an abaya; some people think a headscarf is enough; some people think modest dress is enough. If you have a theocracy, only one interpretation is allowed and people are FORCED to follow rules that they do not believe -- i.e., like Ubergirl, they are afraid the religious police will come and arrest them if they do not follow the "law.". I believe this is horrifying and cannot believe anyone would advocate such a police state.

As to freedom of speech, I completely support the right of the danish pedophiilia party to advocate their point of view. I also support the danish police arresting them if they act on their beliefs. Its called a marketplace of ideas. The bad ideas, like pedophilia and racism, lose. No one pays attention to the KKK in the US anymore, even though they have rallies all the time (I'm not saying racism doesn't exist, just that is it not publicly supported). As to saying that gay rights will lead to bestiality, that is ridiculous. The gay rights movement is founded on the idea that consenting adults should be able to live as they wish, freely. That is completely different from abusing animals or molesting children. I am overall happy with the way my society has evolved -- there are some things I don't like, but I am amazingly happy to have been born in a free society. I can marry who I wish, vote for who I wish, travel where I wish without asking permission, drive my own car, have as many children as my husband and I wish, wear what I wish, watch what I wish, have whatever job I that will hire me, etc. In short, I am free. I also cordially invite you to jump off a bridge if you disagree with that idea. :) You seem to think societies have evolved in a bad direction from 1400 years ago. As to sharia, I'm sure it has some good points. Giving people 500 lashes for spending time along with a young man does seem like of barbaric though.

me said...

In the last sentence, "along" should be "alone" and "like of" should "kind of."

Anonymous said...

yassir my not saying the she dooesnt wearing al 7ijab that means inno she is kafira..but ubergirl just talking about hijab and about religous things but u dont know her or i dont know her personality..ya3ni..when she wants to talk about hijab al awla inaha tkoon labsato..o then al 3abaya illy ma7ad 6ayegha minnahum tara (seter) o al hijab gal rabana (le2alla yo3rafna fayo2thayna) ana ma agool to cover her face bs 3ala al agal inno telbas shay sater o i dont think so inno ban6aloon o bloosa 7aykoon sater aktar mn al 3alaabaaya..and then..e7na netkalam f mujtama3 s3oodi ya3ni huma at3awado 3ala kida ma 7ategdar innak t3'ayer shay before a hundred years...that my opinion

yasir said...

Right… I normally ignore people who post anonymously because you just can't pin them down but I will reply to the twerp with the intellect of a sea horse who stated that I am a retard for claiming that homosexuality is similar to bestiality. If stupidity is hereditary you should be castrated so you can't breed more of your like. I can't even begin to imagine how stupid a person must be if he can't follow a single logical train of thought that's been explained and elucidated upon time and time again. My argument was this; homosexuality was a deviance to your grandparents and it is morality to you. Who is correct? Pick up any basic psychology book and it will have a chapter on deviance, read it please. Emile Durkheim, the 19th century French psychologist claimed that today's morality is tomorrows deviance and I doubt you will find a single psychologist who would disagree. The question is; Who is right? Who has claim to the higher moral ground? Is morality always moral, is it constant or is it dependant on the society or period under study? Think man, what use are you to the world while you refuse to use your mind…? If you say it is constant than you are claiming that you are right and everyone else before you and everyone who will come after you is wrong. So what are the bases to your claim of moral infallibility? If you say that it is relative then you have no right to criticize other societies or indeed individuals, tyrants including Hitler, intolerant towards what they view as immoral. Either way man, you're being completely illogical and hence deserve to be skewered, roasted over Mount Mayon and then fed to a pack of wild wolves.

And 'me', every state is a police state whether you like it or not. Haven’t you ever been fined for speeding or jailed for jumping a red light or drunk driving? Haven't people been arrested to indecent exposure? How is someone being arrested for indecent exposure in the west any different from someone here being arrested for not wearing the Abaya? Be logical please and think.. think, USE YOUR MIND! And if you wish to live in a Muslim state then you have to abide by it's rules, regulations and should be aware of cultural sensitivities. Didn't the states jail Homaidan for "unlawful imprisonment" a few weeks ago? Why? Why are we supposed to respect cultural sensitivities but not you? And about Homaidan, you should know that the disgusting pigs who are the prosecutors offered the maid residency if she testified against him. Bribery? Of course you don't call it that because your culture is steeped in corruption and filth that it just doesn't register, just like you have lobbyists who "donate" money to political parties.
Muslims may disagree on some small matters but the consensus of the Muslims is on majority of the major issues. There is a difference of opinion whether a woman is required to cover her face and hands as well or whether she can leave them uncovered and this is something everyone is flexible on. The religious police will not force you to cover your face. About this issue of "modest" dress, then like I said before, if it meets the conditions of Hijaab than she can wear it. I asked Ubergirl if she tried wearing a white abaya and she said no, so she cannot say that she's being forced to wear a black abaya. I see so many women wearing so many different color abayas and scarves, if it meets the conditions of hijaab as explained by the scholars and upon the consensus of the Muslims throughout history then it is acceptable. If someones personal beliefs conflict with the law, does that give them the right to break the law? Do naturists be allowed to roam around butt naked simply because their "personal beliefs" conflict with the law of the land, or the "beliefs of the land"? Please think carefully before you decide what is right, and what is acceptable and what is not.

So genius, you say that a person can say what he wants to if he doesn't act on it, right? Then why do you have "enticement to terrorism" acts? Your (i.e. the wests) hypocrisy is glaring. I will be arrested for saying that the holocaust is a hoax, that the 9/11 hijackers were heroes, for saying that Bush and his poodle should be blown apart by two billion pounds of TNT but it's ok if I promote bestiality, incest or pedophilia. My statements are not ridiculous, your understanding is ridiculous. I never said that homosexuality will lead to bestiality, let alone gay rights leading to bestiality. I used that as an example to illustrate the fact that today's deviance becomes tomorrows morality in a so called "free" society. Do you know, I can give you seemingly logical or avenues that can be used to legalize bestiality and these, when they are stated in their time will seem natural and ok. I can argue for lowering the age of consent, I can argue that since we slaughter animals and eat them that we can even sleep with them. And then I can argue that incest is only taboo because we are bound by old, "outdated" religious beliefs. All these will seem very logical during the time they are becoming morality.
We'll get one thing straight, your societies were filthy and are still filthy. Just because you have improved in some respects does not mean that you haven't gone back in others. We do not look at western civilization as a whole but rather we study individual societies. The state of your society in the United States is pathetic. In Islamic societies women could and still can own property, do business, decide who to marry and so many rights that you hadn't been granted until 75 years ago. A woman's money is her money only and no one can take anything from it without her permission. In your societies women couldn't own property, everything was her husbands. You have improved in that but along with it you have destroyed the ties that bind, the very fabric that hold society together is tearing. You see it as moral that men and women fornicate and switch partners so often, you see it as moral that men and women grope in public. The concept of a family unit does not exist in so many single parent families. We say that is immoral and that it destroys society. When you have agood way of doing things and a bad way, you chose the good way. The reason you don't marry and chose to fornicate is because you see marriage as a big step, it's not. It's a contractual relationships in which everyone has assigned roles. When you divorce you have a messy separation, we don't. Our women keep their wealth to themselves and it is an obligation on men only to provide everything so there is nothing of who contributed how much.
No one gets 500 lashes only for being alone with someone from the opposite gender. You get 70 lashes for fornication and that is after two eye witnesses have seen the actual act of sex taking place and not just "oh I saw them going into a room together". It is a good deterrent, why would a person chose to fornicate when he has the ability to get married? Islam makes it so easy for people to get married and encourages it in the strongest terms so these people have no excuse and they deserve the 70 lashes. If a woman's guardian refuses to let her marry someone who's character is Islamically good then he loses his right of guardianship.

me said...

"And 'me', every state is a police state whether you like it or not. Haven’t you ever been fined for speeding or jailed for jumping a red light or drunk driving? Haven't people been arrested to indecent exposure? How is someone being arrested for indecent exposure in the west any different from someone here being arrested for not wearing the Abaya?"

Actually Yasir it is very different. I can wear whatever I like. In Saudi Arabia, a woman can ONLY wear an abaya. An in the USA, there is no crime of "incitement to terrorism" and you CAN deny the Holocaust. Its a part of the same thing: a Constitution limiting the state's police power. I can be arrested for violating laws made by legislators. BUT, Any law that violates the Constitution is void. So, I can be arrested for walking around naked because the Constiution does not protect that right. I CANNOT be arrested for wearing a t-shirt that says "Bush lied people died" or "The Holocaust is a hoax" because the Constitution says that no law shall abdrige the freedom of speech. Get it? the UK might have laws like that but the US doesn't.

"We'll get one thing straight, your societies were filthy and are still filthy."

Actually Yasir, I think your society if filthy. Any society that would rather let schoolgirls burn to death than be outside without an abaya is sick.

"In Islamic societies women could and still can own property, do business, decide who to marry and so many rights that you hadn't been granted until 75 years ago."

That is quite true. However, I would much rather be an American woman today than one who lived in a theocracy. As I said before, I can marry who I wish, vote for who I wish, travel where I wish without asking permission, drive my own car, have as many children as my husband and I wish, wear what I wish, watch what I wish, have whatever job I that will hire me, and raise my children whatever way I see fit.

"You see it as moral that men and women fornicate and switch partners so often, you see it as moral that men and women grope in public."

Actually, I don't see it as moral. I think sleeping around and gratiutous public displays of affection are immoral. But, I also see it as part of FREEDOM. Why should I tell people what to do? I certainly don't want THEM telling me what to do in MY own house.

"No one gets 500 lashes only for being alone with someone from the opposite gender. You get 70 lashes for fornication and that is after two eye witnesses have seen the actual act of sex taking place and not just "oh I saw them going into a room together". It is a good deterrent, why would a person chose to fornicate when he has the ability to get married?"

Wow Yasir, I don't know -- why WOULD people have sex before marriage? Gee, its just so illogical. It is punished but 70 lashes BUT STILL people do it. What a puzzling question. As for me, 70 lashes with a whip qualifies as barbaraic and is quite sickening. My desire never to visit a theocratic society has firmed up and I don't think I'll be stepping foot on Saudi Arabian soil in my lifetime.

"Islam makes it so easy for people to get married and encourages it in the strongest terms so these people have no excuse and they deserve the 70 lashes. If a woman's guardian refuses to let her marry someone who's character is Islamically good then he loses his right of guardianship."

Hmm, I wonder how often that's happened. The girl or her suitor go to court and get his guardianship revoked?? Can you find one news article or any proof that this has actually ever occurred?

Basically Yasir, we will never agree. I come from the point of view that the individual should be free to live their life as they see fit, with some limits to maintain public order and keep society functioning, and always respecting basic rights that gov't can never take away (see the Bill of Rights). You come from the point of view that a religious state should be able to tell everyone exactly how to live and believe and enforce their will by force.

yasir said...

'Me', your argument about only being able to wear the abaya is lame. I can say that you, there in the States, are being made to wearonly clothes. Can you go around wearing transparent clothes? We have our constitution; it Is called the Qura'an and Sunnah (the teachings of the Prophet) and there cannot be any law in contravention to that. What really happens is something different but theoretically it is true, just as your freedom of speech is true only theoretically because there have been people arrested and imprisoned life simply for speaking, Sheikh Ali Al Tamimi is one good example. Now you have Babar Ahmed and my friend Talha Ahsan being extradited from the UK simply for speaking the truth. So either I bring up examples of how your society fails to live up to their standards so that we are level or you stop bringing in incidents like the Makkah school fires to the debate. We are discussing ideas and not events. Also, I never claimed that Saudi Society is perfect or ideal; far from it but the ideas you and others attack I defend because they also happen to be the ideas that I hold to be the best.
Let's dissect your statements about having the 'freedom' to do as you please, firstly you do not have the freedom to do as you please. You may do only as much society has allowed you to do while we may do only as much our religion, a constant, allows us to do. Society changes, habits change and the amount of freedom you have also changes. If you want complete freedom then you want complete anarchy where you have the 'freedom' to kill, rape and pillage. 'Freedom' to steal and betray. Do you think a female should have the 'freedom' to sell her body? Do you think a person should have the 'freedom' to starve his children as a punishment? Do you think that a person should have the 'freedom' to drive into someone's home? No.

Sleeping around IS considered morality in your society, just because you don't consider it morality doesn't mean your entire society doesn't either.

About sex before marriage, how hard is it to understand? IT IS NOT ABOUT YOU OR YOUR DESIRES, IT IS ABOUT PROMOTING THE WELL BEING OF THE SOCIETY AT LARGE!!! Saudi Arabia is not a model society and I do not defend them, I defend the noble ideas and concepts that you attack simply because they are different to yours and without having given even the slightest thought as to the repercussions of your value system. All you are doing is trying to force others to conform to what makes you comfortable and cannot accept that others have as much right to limit freedoms, to any limits they deem necessary, as you do. The only difference being that your laws are legislated by people to satisfy the lusts and desires of individuals within that community and our laws are divine, constant, unchanging and JUST. You have no evidence to support your contentions and you cannot even give me strings of logical thought that could back up your claim.

I do not argue to you for the implementation of Sharia in your society but you insist on the implementation of your values on the entire world. That is the difference and that is why YOU have to back up your claims. And I repeat, I was explaining to a Muslimah (female Muslim) the reasons we should forsake western ideas and notions and this is an internal matter which is not the concern of G.Bush or Tony Blair or Negroponte or any other crusader.

You just like tossing around terms such as "theocratic" and "barbaric" and "freedom" and "rights" without understanding what they mean or what effect they have on society and the tradeoffs required. You blabber on endlessly about freedom and bill or rights, about having the freedom to do as you please etc.. but you don't understand that everything comes at a price and you are beginning to pay the price, as a society, of these 'freedoms' that you've been granted. I don't view that as any freedom, to me your way of life has shackled you.

You've been conditioned to think a certain way, you have become zombies without any desire to use their intellect or to question their surroundings. Ignoramuses who live in their own little bubbles, unable to see out and unwilling to come out, blindly assuming that what they believe is the best simply because it gratifies them, with no comprehension or understanding of philosophy and with no other aim than to simply indulge in their desires.

When I say 'you' I do not mean you the individual but rather you the western society and please don't think my words a personal attack on you.

Please re read the points I've made and my contentions and think about them before you answer. And I apologize in advance should I not reply to any more of your posts, which I will do should you simply regurgitate your old arguments in new words because I've already answered them at least three times, each time elaborating further than the last time.

yasir said...

"you have become zombies without any desire to use their intellect or to question their surroundings"

should be

"you have become zombies without any desire to use your intellect or to question your surroundings

Engineer Sighted said...

I could probably write a book in response to some of these things, but I will only address one. Yasir mentioned three people, Ali Al-Tamimi, Babar Ahmed and Talha Ahsan. They are accused of soliciting money and equipment for the Taliban. The Taliban is engaged in armed conflict with the United States Armed Forces, and soliciting support for them is thus against the law. If sufficient evidence can be presented to file for extradition, the US Government does that if the suspect is in a country with an extradition treaty. The United Kingdom is such a country. They were not arrested for "speaking the truth," they were arrested for seeking to aid enemies of the United States in times of conflict. One of them has been convicted.

me said...

I know what you mean engineer. :) Yasir, if you don't think the generic terms "freedom" and "rights" mean anything, try reading the U.S. Constitution.
Its all delineated there.

"If you want complete freedom then you want complete anarchy where you have the 'freedom' to kill, rape and pillage."

No, I don't want anarchy. You didn't read what I said: I come from the point of view that the individual should be free to live their life as they see fit, with some limits to maintain public order and keep society functioning, and always respecting basic rights that gov't can never take away (see the Bill of Rights). The idea is that my rights end when yours begin; I can't steal from you or kill you in the name of freedom. I can, however, live the way I want to and you can live the way you want to.

"All you are doing is trying to force others to conform to what makes you comfortable and cannot accept that others have as much right to limit freedoms, to any limits they deem necessary, as you do. The only difference being that your laws are legislated by people to satisfy the lusts and desires of individuals within that community and our laws are divine, constant, unchanging and JUST."

Yasir, you are missing the point. OUR LEGISLATORS DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO LIMIT OUR FREEDOMS. The Constitution does not let them, and the courts enforce the Constitution. Beyond that constitution, legislators carry out the will of the people in making laws. Over time, the will of the people changes, and new laws are made and old laws repealed. But, certain core freedoms can never be abridged.

See, you don't agree with the idea of the separation of church and state; like you said, the Koran is your Constitution and the state enforces its laws. Our idea is that every person is free to worship and live as he pleases, and the government CANNOT interfere with that worship unless it has a compelling reason (i.e., your are harming another person). Vice versa, the state cannot force anyone to worship a certain a way -- the government is not involved in religion, making the laws equal for everyone, Christian and Muslim alike. ("Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."). Is the system perfect; no -- over the centuries, many different religions and political beliefs have been persecuted. However, most of the time it works. And, if life here were so horrible for Muslims, why do they continue to immigrate in large numbers? Are they not "true" Muslims?

Anonymous said...

Yasir: "Throughout the ages, God has sent man a different law that is suitable for their time and that will help their societies... the law sent to Muhammad PBUH will be applicable and if you study it and understand it you will understand that it is not 'outdated' or 'barbaric' as some claim, rather it is the best solution to all of mankind's problems."

I see no evidence of that. I see no peace and no understanding and no lack of barbary. I see nothing more holy in a black-clothed woman or man than one who is naked. It's not what you wear, but what you do. I'd like to see a little more evidence of actually doing good, rather than wearing good. Wearing good is not enough.

Let there be a new law. 1400 years is a long, long time. We're at the beginning of a new Millenium, the perfect time for a change. Perhaps now is, in fact, the time for a new law?

Anonymous said...

I'm an athiest saudi and yes i blame saudis and their "religion" for turning me into one. Don't worry i ain't complainin i'm merely contemplating . What i don't get is that the government it self knows nothing about religion. yet they force it on the people. What a shame, what a pity! especially when Saudi arabia is supposedly the root of Islam.

Why atheism ? well , i kinna prefer being called normal instead of an atheist. Oh but i kinna have me own thoughts about this, i do believe in the higher power "God" and i do believe that power is something wonderful and merciful but this world the islamic one to be specific changed that idea for me.Ironically , i used to get A's in religious subjects such as Tawheed,fekeh,tafseer and hadeeth. However, the only reason i did was because i wanted to reach the root of all the lies and hypocrisy .

The Hay'ah wow loving their stupid name, are nothing but a bunch of hypocritical convicts how failed to seek proper job after prison so they joined the silly religious force. Why do i hate'em ? yes u guessed , i'm doing something they don't like or to put it correctly i'm being someone who in their eyes is an infidel and a disgrace to Islam. I've been gay ever since i learned how to speak and yes i knew i was one because not once have i fancied girls. Now unlike many saudi "men" i don't have to fancy a girl to respect her. In fact i'm all about feminism and giving women their rights and respect because i believe they're the best thing in this world. Nevertheless, one must differentiate between actually respecting women and lusting for them. Been pushed by my dad who is saudi and my typical saudi bros to be a man and by man i mean; rude,crude,selfish,horny pig,insecure,dumb and greedy. But i refused to follow their stupid norms. Yes i'm my own property and no one else's. After being raped at the age of 12 i realized that something is really wrong in ksa and no one is talking about it ...oooh that's taboo and omfg that is 7aram. La ya shei5 6ayeb how about these innocent children ,girls and boys, who r being molested, raped and brainwashed. Did the government ever care about them ? ... NOT THAT I AM AWARE OF . So basically , after reaching a dead end and after losing all faith in saudi people ( don't get me wrong i know there are alot of good saudis our there how ever i am addressing those i came across),i decided its time for me to leave this country forever. Living with my relatives in the US or France should be the right thing for me to do. And here i am thousands of miles away, trying my best to do one last thing and its speak up. Because in saudi arabia speaking the truth is a pain in the tooth literally! because u keep on grinding ur teeth when u have endless arguments by empty headed saudi boys and girls.

for all those saudis who r living in saudi arabia or what i like to call 'the grave yard of inspiration' don't get caught up in their web of lies , believe me beholding the truth is like holding a torch of flames. Truth will concur all... Enough brain washing and enough killing people for their sexual and religious preferences.enought stealing money from the people and spending it on luxury cars and houses for the rich. enough lying ,enough racism enough extremism enough suffocating the people.

Enough deporting many brilliant writer,scientist and poets because they're being honest or because they're gay.

See i know what it feels like to have no sense of belonging and believe me when i say that is the worst feeling on earth. I can never go back to saudi arabia because i know i would get killed because i'm gay however i wish no one experience this feeling of abandonment and rejection and i wish all of saudi trapped souls to never go through this. But a good question comes to mind "how can we change it ?" easier thought/said than done. This must start with every boy and girl , they must say no coz saying no is the door to creativity and questioning why keeps ur mind and soul alive . Saudis its time to say no , time to live time to smile. end corruption , end molestation and hypocrisy .

Against women driving ?
Then why spend ur days driving and chasing them in cars?

Against gays?
Don't date one and don't marry one . we didn't ask ur permission .

Against Woman not wearing abayas?
The why do u follow them from mall to mall ,street to street. perhaps ur crazy about the abaya and maybe u've got a drag fetish . who knows , i mean comm'on statistics have shown the 69% of saudi men are closeted gays.

Against speaking against religion?
leave it to ur god and stop the hate .

Against jews?
Wtf are u on about ? Jews aren't bad get over it. in fact alot of them are better taught and educated and behaved than Muslims. Learn to tolerate different religions , political view and sexual preferences.

Against America?
Who the fuck u think ur kidding? With out America Saudi Arabia is screwed. And if u disagree then go and speak with the government who probably has an American flag in their quarters.

In conclusion,

Ana maneee 5asran shay okay lama agol hal kalam. Ana bass abee afate7 3yoon illy ma yifham willy yis6a3bi6. no one loves saudi arabia not arabs and neither do westerners so i guess its about time saudis realized that something is WRONG WITH THE SYSTEM .

Ana manee mit2ther and i sought the asylum a long time ago and i renounced the saudi nationality laken i still think of the innocent saudis of those who dare not to speak because they know they'd vanish if they did.

Fingers crossed and my heart goes out to all of you.