...Meanwhile, however, different reports are emerging from local residents,
talking to Somali media. They claim that the bombardment mainly hit pastoralists
gathered at a local waterhole and that a total of around 30 civilians had been
killed in the raids. There had been no indications of Islamist militia fighters
or al Qaeda leaders being hit by the strikes, these sources claim.
The Ethiopian Prime Minister, referring to reports from his troops at the
ground, today denied the US strikes had killed civilians. On the contrary, Mr
Zenawi said those killed "may have involved very senior [Somali] Islamist court
leaders."
According to reporter Mohamed, Somalia's Islamist leaders remain holed up
in a densely wooded area near the Kenyan border...
Honestly.
I don't even know what to say.
Okay yeah I do.
Wh-
How?-
AAARGH!
Somalia? As if you need an air-raid to kill a few terrorists hiding in the woods in Somalia.
I don't care if all the terrorists in existance were having tea together in a little town in the middle of Somalia!
If one innocent human being gets murdered in the process of killing them, it would be wrong. Why do these people think life is a video game?
You don't go around shooting people because it would be more convenient or more efficient than actually doing your job and tracking down the bad guys and capturing them.
These people that you murder don't get another life! This is it! Their children don't get other parents. Their friends and families don't get other thems.
In other words: GAME OVER.
Now do you get it?
Every human being that has ever walked on the face of this earth is valuable in some way. Killing them is wrong.
If you bomb a whole block because one occupant of one house is a terrorist, you create dozens of other angry terrorists.
Because when the other occupants get back from work or school or the grocery store and find that their families and homes no longer exist...
Let's just say that they will hold a rather big grudge on you. Not to mention they will have absolutely nothing to lose...
If I were you, I'd kill myself.
Now.
The United States and Ethiopian governments are on my shit list.
ubergirl
31 comments:
So naive. If you have to kill 10 of the world's deadliest criminals a long with 20 innocent lives, it should be done in a heart beat.
Trust me...those two governments have been on my shit list for quite some time now, and I'm glad majority of their citizens join me on that view.
anonymous...I'm sure you wouldn't be saying that had you or your loved ones been among those '20 innocent lives.'
I'm not naive. You're just an insensitive jerk.
And Sam is right. Let's see what you say if you ever lost a limb and two family members because terrorists may or may not have been hiding in the woods next door.
I wouldn't change my mind, these terrorists go on to kill more innocents, so what's a couple of innocent lives when even more lives might be at risk?
So if your mother, father, daughter, son, or even you lived next door to a terrorist, it would be just fine and dandy if you guys all got blown up? You're just a couple innocent lives right?
akinoluna even though you're trying to make a point, I would have to say that it's alright if my life or someone dear to me was taken in the process of ridding some terrorists.
What if the terrorist weren't really there?
What if they managed to ecape the blast? Would it still be fair for your lives to have been taken?
You have a right to think it's fair, and the rest of us have a right to think it isn't. And anyway, it's so easy for you to sit at your computer and say you wouldn't mind giving away your life to save a bunch of others. I doubt you'll still think that if someone you loved were at that water hole in Somalia. What is the point, anyway? Kill one terrorist and five will new ones will pop up!
"...I would have to say that it's alright if my life or someone dear to me was taken in the process of ridding some terrorists"
anonymous...you've been watching too much Jack Bauer on 24. Uber's right...come such a time where your loved ones end up like those innocent Somali folks, I'm sure you'd not only wish death upon the US president, but anyone remotely having any relation to the country. Heck, with all the psychological trauma, you might even take things into your own hands and become one of the new 'terrorists' that pop up due to that incident.
Behind the computer or not, that's my opinion.
Sam, who's Jack Bauer?
Dear ubergirl,
There are many governments on my shit list. Actually I can't remember if there are any that are not on my shit list. This said, I cannot but agree with the way the Ethiopians (with American help) dealt with the Al-Quaeda scumbags that are on the top of my shit list. Sorry for the people that were caught in the crossfire.
So brave, Anonymous - to post without identity - to hide behind the "Anonymous" label and not let your own identity be known. You are a coward, chest-thumping with false bravado while hiding behind a barn.
I am Sewmouse. I live near Chicago. I share Ubergirl's disgust of the current American government, and am, within all LEGAL means, working to change that.
So so very easy for you to sit at your keyboard in comfort in your tidy little suburban home and prattle on about how killing 30 or 40 innocents to MAYBE catch one "terrorist" is O.K.
Are you certain you aren't a correspondent for Faux News? You sure do seem to have that "George Bush, George Bush Uber Alles" kind of mentality.
"Fighting Terrorism" is doomed to failure. Only through education and cultural exchange, along with economic reform and the establishment of true rule of LAW, not rule of Religion, can the end to violence and terror even begin to be considered.
You, on the other hand, and those who prattle on like you - the Limbaugh and O'Reilly and Coulter Dittohead Clone Squad - you are as much a part of the problem as Osama Bin Laden.
I am Anonymous, I hail from Riyadh Saudi Arabia,currently residing somwhere else. What's so brave about posting under sewmouse? I speak what I believe, just like you're free to preach in whatever you believe, I am not looking to get bashed. It's funny how you're so quick to assume, I'm your typical white American living in suburbia, I'll take that as a compliment ;o)
If someone kills deliberately innocent people... then what's the difference with a terrorist?
I'm just wondering.
Bruco the difference is terrorists target innocents to instill fear in people, while people who are after terrorists have a specific target and innocents may get caught in the aftermath.
Looking at press reports, it doesn't look like the media knows for sure what happened as a result of the air strike in Somalia. That in itself is a tactical ploy; both sides have something to gain by dispensing information.
There is no question that the loss of innocent life is wrong. However, this situation has been greatly reduced in complexity by this post.
Would it not also be wrong to permit someone who plans on killing innocents to do so? What if one of these people killed a family member, but those in power said to you, "We knew precisely where this guy was every step of the way but were unable to stop him for fear of hurting innocent people?" Is that better? Somewhere, someone has to make that call, and the call was, no, that's not better.
Somebody somewhere knows where these angry terrorists are. If these locals enable them to execute terror, are they innocent? How do you know, especially when political sympathies affect what one considers noble and evil in cases like this? How does anyone?
If the source for a story has terrorist sympathies, what motivation is there to tell the truth, if the American attack is successful? If the source has American sympathies, what motivation is there to tell the truth if the Americans got it wrong? How do we know what the source's sympathies are?
At the end of the day, though, the question becomes do the future victims of terrorists deserve consideration? What sort of certainty do you demand before action is taken?
There isn't an easy answer, and there isn't likely to be one soon.
You are naive. Do you even know the history about this horn of Africa country? Do you know why the Ethiopians are attacking another country? How Saudi Arabia is involved? Why the US is there?
Ubergirl stop trying to be a smart ass and go read up before you put whole nations on your shit list.
Alright anonymous...care to enlighten our naive souls on the country's history and why the Ethiopians are attacking it and how KSA is involved and why the US is there?
No seriously...all sarcasm aside, tell us so we see the picture...
Then I'll also tell you who Jack Bauer is...
Listen up boys, girls and naive ubergirl.
Somalia has not had a functioning government since 1991 after its leader was ousted. Since then, it has been ruled by warlords. A couple of months ago the Islamic Courts (a relatively unknown group) started defeating the warlords and gained control of most of the country. They claimed to be doing it in the name of Allah. But Allah does not help win wars. A third country was financing them.
This is where Ethiopia and Eritrea come into the picture. Both countries have had a very long running border dispute. Since Ethiopia borders Somalia, Eritrea helped the Islamic Courts gain control of the country. In other words they created an ally and sandwiched Ethiopia in the middle.
The Ethiopians found out and invaded Somalia not to free the country but to stop the growing Eritrean threat.
Since no one really controls Somalia, it became a hotbed for terrorists. And a huge number of Saudi and Arab "freedom fighters" took refuge there. That is why the Arab League denounced the bombing of Somalia because the Arabs know that it is there people being killed.
Note the quick Arab reaction to Somalia and yet they refuse to pressure Sudan to end atrocities in Darfur.
Somalia was becoming another Afghanistan, the US could not afford this and bombed certain militant hideouts. I personally followed up on the attacks and they were surprisingly very well organised.
The US has no ground troops in Somalia, it simply along with Ethiopia helped install a government and tried to prevent the country from becoming a terrorist's paradise.
Please look at the bigger picture people before playing the blame game.
Sam: Jack Bauer is an actor known for his role in one of my favorite shows, Fox's 24. He is the son of Donald Sutherland and despite his father's not so pleasing looks, turned out to be a relatively handsome actor.
anonymous: The bigger picture...
You know…for the average Joe, the current Ethiopian invasion of Somalis nothing but some distant military campaign in the war against ‘terror’. For the average Moe, it's a war between good and evil, where the Islamic Courts are the good; and that's why you wouldn't be surprised to find most Muslims backing them. But to Somalis...it's different. Somalis are profoundly nationalistic and to them, this is nothing short of an embarrassing catastrophe because today their country is under the occupation of their most hated historical enemy, Ethiopia.
Before I refute any of your comments, let’s put down the facts about the Islamic Courts Union. You said it yourself; the ICU started defeating the various warlords and gained control of most of the country. All this time, it was revealed that the CIA was aiding the warlords against the ICU, despite all the US cash payments to the various warlords; none of them was able to assert their authority over the population. All the while, the ICU managed to clear the capital and other towns of guns and drugs and for the first time since ’95, airports and seaports opened for commercial business, something no neither the transitional government nor the warlords have been able to do. Bush & Co. continued to label the ICU a terrorist joint and started planning to overthrow them via Ethiopia.
Eritrea was financing the ICU…so? Although I would question Eritrea’s reasons for aiding the ICU, there’s still no proof of the ICU being terrorists or having any links with Al-Qaeda. There was no proof that Somalia was evolving into another Afghanistan...and there's no difference if the US sent in ground troops and tanks or sent a satellite hurling from space; there's still no justifying what they did.
You know, most Somalis, both religious or not, saw how life improved under the ICU law and for the same reasons, Somalis abroad saw this too and were eager to give the ICU a chance to prove themselves; which they did after restoring order and cleaning of the streets. Upon seeing the new state of things, a large number of Somalis living abroad were willing to return and rebuild the country. Hopes for a new Somalia were high and looked possible...but with these latest incidents…shit just hit the fan just as it looked like it was settling.
What’s ironic is, this war has ruined any chances for the TFG of ruling Somalia. The warlords were already flying high on the people’s shit list for corruption, and now that they actually worked with the Ethiopian government, they’ll be deemed nothing but traitors for the people’s No.1 enemy: Ethiopia.
And we both know the US & Ethiopia don't want a stable/united Somalia.
Oh, so the US doesn't want a stable Somalia? Why is that? What advantage is there in unstable Somalia? Finish you thought, Sam!
There is no proof that ICU are not terrorists? The first thing they did after gaining power was terrorizing the population of Somalia! People were executed for watching the World Cup on TV - is that not terror? Others were killed for not praying five times a day. Is that not terror?
The fact is that there are no good guys or bad guys. Between the war lords or ICU, what choice do the poor Somalis have?
Sam: Life did not improve under the Islamic Courts.
They became another Taliban. Women were forced to coverup from head to toe. Movie theaters were burned down. A law was even passed that, this is a direct quote "forbids men and women to stand together on the street."
Trust me, the people were not happy the way the Islamic Courts were handling things.
The Islamic Courts also insisted that Somali Land, Dijibouti, parts of Ethiopia be returned to Somalia. And they were willing to go to war with these countries to get what they thought is theirs.
The world is much better without the Islamic Courts.
The sad thing about this whole situation is that no country or party has the interests of the Somali people at heart.
The Ethiopians and Eritreans are using it as a battleground.
The Americans are making sure it doesn't become a terrorist haven.
The war lords want power.
The Islamic Courts want to establish an extreme right wing Islamic empire.
eva: The courts...I have to admit; not being able to curb their intolerance to mundane things such as the world cup and killing the protesters would certainly label them terrorists. The courts did have their issues and they needed to cut the people some slack, but you have to agree the Somali predicament was a bit more complicated. The courts cleaned up the streets and made it safer for the people, although they imposed harsher laws.
anonymous: In terms of safety and security, life did improve under the courts. The tribal and vengeful warlords were ousted and the streets were cleaned up of drugs and guns. No more gun-toting kids riding the cabs of Land Cruisers. But the courts gave something...and took another thing; people's freedom to interact and dress, limiting activities as harmless as movie going and wedding gatherings in which singers were involved. That's the sad part the Somalis face. And trust me, people wanted it this way. The country saw a great increase in Somalis living abroad come back for visits because it was much safer. For Somalis, it was a change of having your where abouts limited to a single neighborhood with the chance of being shot if you happen to venture a yard in someone else's hood or having complete safety but adhering to strict laws; and I believe most of them (not all) welcomed the safety and hoped that with time, the courts would ease things.
I too, beieve that to the Ethiopians and Eritreans, this was just another battle, which was completly wrong on their sides. The Ethiopians don't want to see a united Somalia because Somalia was once the leading economy in the Horn before its fall and Ethiopia doesn't want that again.
Now lt's hope the TFG can do a proper job and hope their help from Ethiopia and re-instatement of war lords as allies doesn't backfire on them.
I bet ubergirl has no clue what is going on.
Anon: I actually do know Somalia's history. I have been reading up, and for a while now. I don't understand why you you're acting like you're a genius... We all read newspapers and look things up. It really isn't something you need to be bragging about.
Again, I am not naive, and I do not appreciate your immature name calling. Grow up.
The ICU ALLEGEDLEY BANNED people from watching the world cup. Where did you get the information about them killing people over it (and over prayers), eva? I'm not a supporter of the ICU, I'm just curious.
My problem with the United States government (notice how I said GOVERNMENT, NOT PEOPLE), other than the fact that it is bombing villagers at water-holes, is that it is fueling the civil war by supplying the Mogadishu warlords with weapons. Illegally.
This is the case with many many African countries. Like Sierra Leone. The United States government sells weapons to millitias there. What ends up happening is that children are forced to work at diamond mines, so that these militias can sell the diamonds cheap to other countries, and use the money to buy weapons from the United States to kill eachother.
It is a vicious, never ending cycle.
Back to Somalia: Why does the United Sates do this if their goal is only to erradicate the terrorists? Why not go in, take them out, and leave? We all know they're capable of doing that without killing 100 herdsmen -and 0 terrorists- in the process.
Why would they want a civil war?
The only reason I can think of is maybe they want conrol of the region.
I don't know.
Engineer: Excellent points.
The only answer I can give you is: You need to hear it from a number of sources and then make a decision on who or what you support. And in my opinion, when the United States and Ethiopian governments conduct (atleast) two airstrikes (that we know of) and 130 innocent people are killed and 100s are wounded, and there are absolutely NO reports of terrorist casualties, they are being horrible and inhumane, and they need to be held accountable and pay for what they have done.
I believe the United States CAN do what they say they're in Somalia for (taking out the terrorists) with a lot less death of innocents. If the terrorists are in the forrests, what are they doing bombing villages? I believe all aroudn, nothing is being done right when it comes to Somalia. So very sad.
support/believe.*
One more thing, anon. Jack Bauer is a fictional character played by Kiefer Sutherland.
SO HOW ARE THOSE HONOR KILLINGS IN THE NAME OF ISLAM COMING ALONG UBERGIRL?
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